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Old 06-24-2006, 02:54 PM   #12
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader
A nazgul could and would kill you at their first opportunity as well. You don't have to be greatly afraid of cars to be killed by one. A car lover (no fear at all) could get run over.
I understand your analogy, but it's not apt. You're saying that someone can get killed by something they do not fear. That is true. The reason people do not fear cars, however, is because a car is not your enemy and would not kill you of its own volition. (A more appropriate parallel to a car is a sword: it does not inspire fear of itself, but when wielded as a weapon by an enemy, it can effect that enemy's harmful will.) The Nazgul would take every available opportunity to kill Eldar if they had the power to do so; therefore, if the Nazgul had any power over the Eldar, the Eldar would be foolish not to fear them.

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The nazgul did not rely on fear alone.
Once again, we're not talking about that supernatural fear that the Nazgul used to wither weak-spirited enemies. We're talking about any rational fear at all that might come from confronting a more powerful enemy than oneself. Glorfindel is not counted among the greatest of the Eldar, yet he slew a Balrog himself and openly confronted all Nine Ulairi. Not only that, but many years earlier, this same Glorfindel had been the one to put the Witch-King to flight after his kingdom had been utterly destroyed.

I'm not claiming that the Eldar were invincible. My claim is that in any confrontation involving Eldar and Nazgul, without the additional factor of overwhelming armies, the Eldar would not be threatened. In fact, the Nazgul would not be likely to stick around.

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Please provide the said quote of them fleeing from his wrath. The only time I recall Glorfindel meeting all nine Nazgul was when they were chasing Frodo and were "power-limited" (so to speak) at the time.
Power limited? How so? It's true that the Nazgul were focused on Frodo and their mission, and you're right that they do have killing power, and Glorfindel was not invincible. Gandalf tells us that even Glorfindel and Aragorn, on foot could not withstand all nine Nazgul. Then he says:
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Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.
Also:
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the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
and
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Appendix A: (after the Witch-King's army had been defeated and the Witch-King had rode against Earnur, whose horse fled from him in fear, which cracked up the W-K) But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-King turned to flight and passed into the shadows.
Apart from all of this, we know that the Eldar are inherently greater beings than even the Numenoreans. The Nazgul are merely Men.

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Glorfindel was not foolish, yet with any situation that could be fatal he was wary.
I'll grant that; it furthers my point: Glorfindel was not wary when confronting the Witch-King in the account from Appendix A, so we can assume he had nothing to fear.

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Glorfindel was powerful, but I believe he'd be quite hindered if a sword was stuck in his stomach.
Sure, if he started a fight that way. The whole point is that the Nazgul could not get the sword there in the first place. The Balrog wasn't able to, and we know for certain that they're mightier than any Nazgul.

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Eowyn did not fear death, however the book shows no specific detail of a fear of the Witch-King. To defy him as she did and even threaten him if he harmed Theoden shows a very, very remote fear at best, one which would not grant "great power." Eowyn, in her bravery, still had her shield shattered and her arm broken in one blow.
The fear the Nazgul projected was supernatural, and Eowyn was not immune to it.

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I have no prejudice towards women, and do not accuse me of having one. The great actions of Galadriel were those of governing and wisdom.
You're expressing your prejudice right there. As I pointed out before, Galadriel's greatness was never qualified the way you have qualified it. She was greatest of the Noldor, and among the three greatest of the Eldar. There's no reason, apart from some preconceived notion of her position or abilities, to assume that she was not a mighty warrior in the manner of all other "great" Noldor.

The rest of your comments, particularly about gender roles in England, are bogus and not even worth responding to.

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Gandalf's attitude against having to go up against the Witch-King was not one of "Don't worry, it's fine."
He was confident enough to be dishing out orders. The Witch-King obeyed.

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His attitude was more along the lines of "I don't know if he's better than me or not, but I'm the only one who stands a chance."
I'll be looking forward to your textual support for this.

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The Witch-King showed no fear of Gandalf, and Gandalf seemed to not have any exploitable fear of the Witch-King.
Except that when Gandalf told him to bug off, he bugged off.

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In all regards, the book portrayed them as equals, one good and one evil, at that moment.
No it didn't.

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The reason the Witch-King left was not that he was afraid of Gandalf, he left because Rohan arrived and he had an army to save.
Gandalf was the backbone of the Alliance. If he had fallen, it would have been a crippling blow. If the Witch-King had any chance of defeating Gandalf on the spot, he would have taken it. Gandalf slew the Balrog while observing limitations on his power. The Balrog was immensely more powerful than the Witch-King. Gandalf came back from that battle enhanced. Do you follow? Here's another line of reasoning: Sauron and Gandalf were approximately equal (look elsewhere on the forum for my discussion of this topic), Sauron was far superior to his Lieutenant, therefore Gandalf was obviously mightier than the Witch-King.

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The quote is everywhere and I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it. From the smallest sites to the Encyclopedia of Arda, it's quoted that Sauron is the greatest everywhere.
Show me.

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If I wasn't about to go out to dinner, I would provide the quote myself.
Haha! Nice.

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Also, don't rag on me for saying Maia instead of Maiar. Maia is a well-accepted abbreviation for Maiar, and if I'm not mistaken the word Maia was in the writings of Tolkien himself.
Once again, Nice. Abbreviation? Like "cat" is an abbreviation of "cats."

Last edited by obloquy; 10-03-2007 at 04:00 PM.
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