[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

I'm suggesting LotR(1) conceals/reveals that Deeper sense of 'reality' (Eucatastrophic experience leading to 'transcedent' experience)(2) while LMP seems to be suggesting LotR(1) conceals/reveals Christian 'Truth'(2), which 'Truth' then conceals/reveals that Deeper sense of 'reality' (Eucatastrophic experience leading to 'transcendent' experience)(3).

So LMP is introducing an unnecessary stage into the process as far as I can see.

No.

Tolkien said that the purpose of Fairy Story is escape, consolation, and recovery; namely to recover a clear view. Clear view of what? Reality. What he's saying (and I think you agree) is that Fairy Story (mythic story) reveals reality better than, and in a way that, mimetic fiction cannot.

You need to understand that from my point of view there is no unnecessary stage, since Deeper sense of reality and Christian reality are one and the same.

Originally Posted by davem

It seems to me that believers go to such extremes to construct reasons why God doesn't openly reveal His existence because they're afraid He doesn't actually exist.

It occurred to me today that the Christian subtext in LotR and the evidence of God in the world are of the same nature. In both, the "thing itself' is so pervasive and knitted into the very fabric of the sub-creation that we're too used to looking at it and don't see it for what it is. For example, God's reality is in the very fact that the sun shines by day and the stars by night. That the planets continue to spin and revolve and our hearts keep beating. We take all of it so for granted that we don't even consider that God's creative and maintaining will are behind everything continuing to work. It doesn't matter that there's a scientific explanation for all of it rooted in physics and/or biology; those are merely explanation of what we see actually happening. There is no satsifactory explanation for WHY it keeps happening the way it does. Scientists are forced to answer, "Well, that's the law of (fill in the blank)." What's behind the law? God is behind the law. In the same way, Tolkien's faith is deeply ingrained in LotR. I'll being showing this.

The Losses of the Ring show some revealing variation.

1. Isildur cuts off Sauron's finger and the Ring falls to Isildur.
2. The Ring slides off Isildur's finger at the Gladden Fields, betraying him to the murdering arrows of the orcs.
3. Déagol is murdered by Sméagol for its possession.
4. The Ring slides off Gollum's finger uner the mountain.
5. The Ring drops from Bilbo's hands; Gandalf quickly picks it up before Bilbo can retrieve it.
6. Gandalf quickly places the Ring which he places on the hearth.
7. Sam removes the chain from around Frodo's neck, thinking him dead and the errand in need of completion.
8. Sam gives the Ring back to the demanding Frodo.
9. Gollum bites of Frodo's finger and regains the Ring.
10. The Ring and Gollum melt in the fires of Mount Doom.

Gandalf, when explaining the Ring to Frodo in 'Shadows of the Past', says that Bilbo gave up the Ring voluntarily, but the narration in the previous chapter reveals a more complex situation. Bilbo 'accidentally' drops the Ring.

'You have still got the ring in your pocket,' said the wizard.
'Well, so I have!' cried Bilbo. 'And my will and all the other documents too. You had better take it and deliver it for me. That will be safest.'
'No, don't give the ring to me,' said Gandalf. 'Put it on the mantelpiece. It will be safe enough there, till Frodo comes. I shall wait for him.'
Bilbo took out the envelope, but just as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back, and the packet fell to the floor. Before he could pick it up, the wizard stooped and seizedit and setit in its place. A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh.

What causes his hand to jerk back? What causes the packet to fall to the floor? Both circumstances are laid before the reader in such a way that we understand Bilbo to be passive; one acted upon rather than causing action. So Gandalf picks up the envelope holding the Ring, and quickly places it on the hearth. Bilbo is about to get mad, but freed of the burden of the Ring, he suddenly feels relief, and laughs - he is himself again at last (or so we hope) - and leaves Bad End lighter of heart than he has been for many years.

So is Gandalf lying to Frodo when he says that Bilbo gave up the Ring voluntarily? No. Bilbo's obvious relief at being rid of it, shows that he would have given it up, if he had been able. He wasn't able. His will had become enslaved to the Ring.

There is only one voluntary relinquishment of the Ring, by Sam.

Three times the Ring is violently removed fromt its holder.

Three times the Ring falls from the hand of its holder.

Two of these times, the Ring is certainly the will at work: leaving Isildur and leaving Gollum. What about when Bilbo drops it? The sense I have is that the Ring causes Bilbo's hand to jerk back; but does the Ring cause itself to be dropped from Bilbo's hand? Does it drop in hopes of being claimed by Gandalf? Perhaps. Was it just an accident? If so, it is an unusual exception to everything we know about the history of the Ring. Or was there another will at work? If so, what will could overpower the Ring's will to remain in the hands of Bilbo? What will could overpower the Ring's potential hold on Gandalf? It's obvious that Gandalf doesn't trust himself. He is exerting all his effort to separate the Ring from Bilbo while putting every effort of will that he can spare to resist the temptation of the Ring himself! It's not Gandalf's power that gets Bilbo to drop the Ring; Gandalf doesn't dare exert his will in that way, or he will himself succumb to the Ring's lure.

So what will is this? What power? The Valar? If so, which of them has the power to overcome the will of the Ring, that even Gandalf and Galadriel fear? None of them. Is this dropping of the Ring just an accident? How many 'accidents' are there in LotR? More specifically, how many 'acidents' seem to tip the precarious scales of 'chance' toward the good of the free peoples, and away from Sauron's advantage ... if 'chance' we call it? What power is this? There is only one power, one answer that fits the narrative. Eru.