[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

As to the six 'days' of creation. It is possible to take 'days' figuratively. Except that in the Ten Commandments we are told to rest on the seventh day because God made the world in six days & rested on the seventh, so clearly God was referring there to actual days as we understand the term.

The conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the original point; 'a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day' .... therefore, the two are analogous and the day-eon can be used as a prescriptive for the day-24-hours-long.

Originally Posted by davem

I also have to say that this is in no way off-Tolkien & I suspect that Tolkien would be joining in here with gusto. Certainly it is off Middle-earth, but I'm sure Tolkien considered God more important than Middle-earth. I'm pretty sure what we've been discussing here would be very close to the discussions the Inklings had pre-Lewis' conversion. And I have to add that if Tolkien had felt the same way as Legolas Lewis would never have converted, there would have been no Narnia, no Mere Christianity, no Screwtape Letters, Great Divorce, etc, etc.

Hear! hear!

Originally Posted by davem

It seems important to LMP that I & others adopt their worldview

Yes.

Originally Posted by davem

as though that would in some way confirm its 'Truth'.

No. I've never been more certain of my world view as I am now; in fact, this discussion has strengthened my certainty. I want you to know the joy I've discovered.

Good quote from Chesterton. In summary, ONE of the world views has be true.

Originally Posted by davem

All I'm saying is that I've seen no proof that one weltanshauung is truer than any other. Certainly there is one 'Truth' about Reality, but there are multiple attempts to explain it. One of those attempts may actually be True - its possible. But I'd say that to adopt one of those based purely on 'belief' is to live in a delusion. As another fantasy writer, Gene Wolf, put it: 'Belief insults the mind - a thing is either true or it is not.'

I disagree, of course, with Gene Wolf. Belief is unavoidable. To stay on the fence regarding all beliefs is not humanly sustainable. Everyone believes somthing about ultimates. It's impossible not to. Whether you're confident about your beliefs, that's another story.

Originally Posted by davem

I see little difference between saying Middle-earth is 'Christian' & saying Christianity is 'Middle-earthian'. Christianity is a 'secondary world' which only (as far as scientific proof goes) exists only in the mind (whether that was the intention or not) of believers.

Not so. The primary reality of Christianity has been demonstrated over and over to me.

Scientific proof of Christianity is indeed impossible (although a very intelligent Christian friend of mine disagrees with me). Juridical proof is not. There are two kinds of juridical proofs: (1) proof beyond a reasonable doubt; (2) proof by weight of evidence. Obviously, beyond a reasonable doubt is much to be preferred to mere weight of evidence. When I say that my faith has been demonstrated over and over to me, I'm speaking of beyond a reasonable doubt. Too many things have built up a case for it such that to refuse to believe it would be the height of foolishness on my part.

Originally Posted by davem

For all I know Christianity may have been the invention of a bunch of drunken Greek philosophers who were a bit bored one night.

There is documented proof that this cannot be the case.

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly the Gospels were not written as 'reportage' - John even states 'These things were written so that you might believe' - in other words he's not simply stating facts objectively so that people might think for themselves.

John's and the other gospel writers' purpose was to persuade. That doesn't make their works 'not reportage', but reports designed to show what they knew to be the truth.

There is much in the bible that will seem dead, boring, unbelievable, or unpalatable, precisely because the reader has refused to entertain the possibility of God on the bible's terms. For the reader who does entertain this possibility, the rewards will be few but available, because that is only a first small step. If the reader allows that God speaks through the words of the bible, more will be understood, about life, God, and self. If the reader agrees that God inspired the bible, and that it, being the Word of God, has power to change lives, the reader will be changed. If the reader accepts the bible as true, including most especially the way of repentance from sin into life in Christ, the reader's eyes will be opened and the reader will understand that much which s/he had thought was natural, is revealed as fallen and unredeemed. If the reader receives the fire of the Holy Spirit, the Words of the Bible will come alive on the page, and new meanings before unseen shall be seen, and realities before unknown, will become known.

Now, the above could be written off as "well, it's all wish fulfillment". To believe that is a choice one may take; but to one's own detriment in the here and now at least.

Regarding 'Consciously in the Revision':

One obvious revision is the chapter, Riddles in the Dark from The Hobbit, as most here are well aware. I quote:

So they came to a dead stop. Gollum had brought Bilbo to the way out after all, but Bilbo could not get in! There was Gollum sitting humped up right in the opening, and his eyes gleamed cold in his head, as he swayed it from side to side between his knees.

Bilbo crept away from the wall more quietly than a mouse; but Gollum stiffened at once, and sniffed, and his eyes went green. He seemed to be crouched right down with his flat hands splayed on the floor, and his head thrust out, nose almost to the stone. Though he was only a black shadow in the gleam of his own eyes, Bilbo could see or feel that he was tense as a bowstring, gathered for a spring.

Bilbo almost stopped breathing, and went stiff himself. He was desperate. He must get away, out of this horrible darkness, while he had any strength left. He must fight. He must stab the foul thing, put its eyes out, kill it. It meant to kill him. No, not a fair fight. He was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or tried to yet. And he was miserable, alone, lost. A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror, welled up in Bilbo's heart: a glimpse of endless unmarked days without a light or hope of betterment, hard stone, cold fish, sneaking and whispering. All these thoughts passed in a flash of a second. He trembled. And then quite suddenly in another flash, as if lifted by a new strength and resolve, he leaped.

You know what happens next. The italicized section is the temptation. The first underlined section is Bilbo's conscience at work. The bold is new insight; it could be argued that this new insight finds Bilbo a passive receiver ... that is, he receives the insight; from where? Inside himself? Perhaps. But the second underlined section is clearly passive. Bilbo is lifted by a new strength and resolve. It's not something that he generated for himself, it was something he received. In other words, it was given to him. By whom? It has all the earmarks of grace received. This is beyond the ability of the Valar, and can only come from one Source. Thus, this is an example of 'consciously Christian in the revision'.