[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe you're right - should we start with you? From my perspective you are clearly 'delusional'.

Fine with me. I'm glad the truth is out. You think I'm 'delusional', I think you're deluded. Even - - - sort of. "de = un; ludens = light" - - - deluded = unenlightened; delusional = given to lack of enlightenment. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien himself certainly did, referring to certain individuals as 'Orcs' or to Satan as 'Sauron'

Do you really think he was getting confused? Isn't it quite obvious that he was drawing analogies to make points?

Originally Posted by davem

I'd say that's what you've done - found yourself a Secondary world that you like so much that you've confused it with everday reality & I've no doubt you believe I've done the same. If there's a difference between us its probably just that I acknowledge I've done that.

So basically what you're saying is that you admit to having lost touch with reality, and my problem is that I haven't admitted it. But there's another difference. I've experienced positive changes in character directly attributable to this "delusion"; from bitterness to joy, despair to hope, confusion to clarity, et cetera. Any delusion that can do that, is one that I'm quite content to 'stay in the dark with'.

Originally Posted by drigel

The fact that no one on this plane of existence is actually one with God (which would be Primary belief), we all, in a sense live in a state of Secondary belief.

Which is to say that since we do not have union with God, we're all in a state of not knowing the truth. True as far as it goes, but I have chosen to believe, and with great reward, that God has in fact revealed Himself in such a way that we CAN know him, through Jesus. Care to test Him on it?

Originally Posted by alatar

Here's the problems:

* When I cannot speak of my secondary world for fear of retribution, and

* When belief in a secondary world kills.

Good points, alatar.

[/quote]I think this reveals what must result from a point of view that chooses against belief in the God of the Bible. Being that you're such a decent fellow, davem, yours is what I would call a conscientioushedonism: "Eat, drink, and be happy," and live well so that you can live with yourself while you live, "for some day we die and that's it". Makes perfect sense, nothing relativistic about it. Quite rational. And sad in its ultimate despair. It makes sense therefore to treat life as a big smorgasbord of ideas, trying out this, then that, but committing to none, since none really can satisfy that ultimate craving that lies in the depth of our being.

Not even science has all of the Answers, but with a free market place of ideas and thought, for those physical/materials things within its scope we will continually arrive at the Truth (an approximation, as some of you well know ).[/quote]As I said, intelligent Christians like scientists, because at least they're in touch with the reality they can be in touch with.

Originally Posted by alatar

And lastly, the first part of this article, coincidencely published today (spooky! ), gives a glimpse into why we do what we do.

Quite an excellent article, and something that has always been a part of my mental package since I was about 9 (for reasons I'd rather not go into right now); vigilance, self-knowledge, fooling myself as little as possible about what's really going on, no matter how bad it looks or feels. I wasn't always successful, but to the degree I succeeded, it did not do me harm.

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm no philosopher or deep thinker, but think that we all work with a projection of the real world within our heads.

How is it that all humans agree about so much of what's out there? [rant]It's as if we're 'wired' to engage the world. Come now! This Cartesian "i think therefore i am" business really has not done us much good at all. Science would have continued quite successfully without it. It has created a subjective versus objective split (thank you, Greeks ) that only gets worse with time and has resulted in such relativistic non-reason-promoting reasoning as has done nothing but confused westerns.[/rant]

Originally Posted by alatar

it's amazing that when they bump up against each other that there's any congruence.

What should be amazing is that there's so little in-congruence.

Originally Posted by davem

Define 'reality'. Is it where my body is, or where my mind is?

Reality = God + what God has made.

Originally Posted by davem

Define 'mind'. Is it limited to 'reality' - ie the 'primary' world, or can it also exist in a secondary world?

A secondary world is by Tolkien's definition (he did coin the term after all) a feigned reality. I don't accept your use of the term, nor should anyone else. What you mean is 'world view'. Thus: Is 'mind' limited to reality, or can it also exist in a feigned world? A feigned mind can exist in a feigned world. Simple enough.

Originally Posted by davem

Am 'I' my mind, or my body, (or my soul or my spirit)?

You're not in it; you are all of it combined. We westerns run the risk of divorcing our thinking the more from reality with every distinction we make; all the more important it becomes to stay in touch with reality.

Originally Posted by drigel

It's still all about perception.

This is true if you choose not to have any certainties in life. That's also a choice. God has revealed himself. God has been born a human and lived and died and risen and made it possible for us to have unity with God, and to begin to learn from God what is real and what is false. And yes, a higher power can break through our limited perception, if we choose to let it.

Laitoste: Your apologies are accepted and unnecessary. You are addressing two issues at once. (1) Paul's supposed anti-feminism; (2) how moderns are abusing Paul's words. It's not Paul's fault that modern abuse his words. The only way the Bible should be read is be taking account of historical and cultural context. God certainly doesn't want us to turn off our brains! Misogynist - woman hater, correct? I have a hard time imaging that a woman as successful and obviously intelligent as Lydia would be willing to give ear to an obvious woman hater.

As to your contention regarding the Bible, I have discovered through experience how God speaks onto the written page through dictation. Make of that what you will.

Regarding the 31 kings, I'm not supposed to explain that ... yet ... or at least, not here.

So yes, you are going to have to see me either as delusional or on target. Take your pick. Anybody up to test God? You don't have to believe in God to do it...

Originally Posted by Laitoste

The Bible was written by men, even if it was “divinely inspired.“ Men (and women, to be gender-inclusive) are apt to get things wrong.

This is something you're probably going to choose not to believe, but the people to whom God spoke God's word had already gotten to know God well enough such that they were ready 'instruments' to get God's message right.

Originally Posted by davem

I think its dangerous to stray into the area of 'intelligent design' without more support than the 'God of the gaps'.

I agree.

Originally Posted by davem

For him the Sun moved around a stationary earth, for me its the opposite. All I know is what I actually experience.

Surely you're not suggesting that you might be wrong? That this is merely a matter of perspective? Come now....

Originally Posted by alatar

But according to Christianity God does intervene. Miracles happen. The problem is that God will intervene quite eagerly sometimes & simply refuses to do so at others. If God never intervened it would not be a problem, but because He does intervene we have a right to ask why He doesn't bother in so many cases.

This comes back to the Church. For 'some reason', God wants prayers to be made, which He answers. This is his preferred mode. I know the reason, but I don't want to say just yet....

Originally Posted by alatar

But Genesis states the Universe was created in six days approximately 6,000 years ago while science tells us it was about 15,000, 000,000 years ago.

Ever heard of "figurative"?

Originally Posted by alatar

Science tells us life evolved & that humans & modern apes share a common ancestor.

Science tells us that as far as can be determined by current methods, life evolved, et cetera.

Originally Posted by alatar

Science attempts to explain the Universe without recourse to miracles.

As it should. Miracle is God's action. God cannot be controlled by scientific experiment, and is therefore necessarily outside the domain of science. That does not mitigate the fact that science is a useful and viable means of gaining knowledge about the world.

Originally Posted by alatar

It's not easy to test the divine, but it's easy to say that the test was passed after the fact when any answer will do.

It's impossible to scientifically test the divine. I've already explained why.

Originally Posted by alatar

The crowd was hoping to get God to tip His hand. Even if this meant their immediate destruction, for a moment they would know.

On their own terms, not His. Very insightful of Herbert. I read that book. Very strange, very interesting.

'Intelligent Design' has an ulterior motive. Whereas I happen to agree with their contention, I think they're foolish and wrongheaded for trying to do what they're doing in the way they're doing it. It's "being Saruman to fight Sauron". Doomed.

Originally Posted by davem

It seems to me that believers go to such extremes to construct reasons why God doesn't openly reveal His existence because they're afraid He doesn't actually exist.

If you have found that to be true of me, I would appreciate having it pointed out so that I can get my head straightened out about it. The fact is, God did & does openly reveal His existence; most of us lack the perception to receive it. Sin. Quite simply, really. Nothing extreme or elaborate about that. Merely offensive to the human ego, that's all.