[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Come again?

Actually, I think I know what you mean. And it a point on which you and I must disagree in brotherly kindness. I don't have much quarrel with the seven sacraments, and by saying so I reveal myself as a bad protestant. However, I think that the Roman Catholic church is too ready to identify itself as THE Church. By contrast, I view the Real Church as a more or less invisible organism that only God can know the true membership of, that becomes visible only through the deeds of real believers.

I think you may have misinterpreted me... You seem to be taking my meaning to infer that Catholics alone are necessarily saved, while the rest of Christianity is out there with the Hindus and Buddhists on the Maybe list.

That was not my meaning at all!

What I was trying to express is that being a Christian- be it a Christian of the Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox persuasion is not a guarantee to getting into Heaven. If you live a Christian life, then, yes, it would seem you've got a good chance- regardless of your denomination. However, I was speaking with the people in mind who CALL themselves Christian, who go to Church and put a semblance of a Christian lifestyle, in complete hypocrisy. These people are Catholic as often as they are Protestant, and that fact that they are formal members of any Church will not save them from Hell if they deserve it.

I hope that clears it up...

As you seem to be able to infer from the test, and the study of Jesus' resurrection, the crucial thing has nothing to do with deciding to sing hymns and all that paraphernalia of ritual (Roman Catholics will not like me saying this). Rather, it has to do with your deep being, who you really are, meeting the deep being of God, person to Person.

Contrary to what you were thinking, this Roman Catholic at least (although Roman Catholic is a bit of an antiquated term. In this era we try to remember and recognize our Greek Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Catholic, and so forth, brethern. Latin-rite Catholic is more accurate, and reminds the reader that the "Roman" Church is just a rite of the Catholic Church) would agree with you. Hymns, rituals, and the like are not going to get you into Heaven. I say this in agreement with my last remark of clarification.

However, I would take issue with the use of the word "paraphrenalia" with regards to ritual. This is not mere extraneous "stuff", this is a very real and tangible way of connecting to God, person to person. Again, the issue of the Sacraments comes up. God realized that Man needs physical connections, that he needs Real connections to God. The Sacraments are physical in nature. There is never any doubt as to whether they've occured or not- any newspaper reporter could watch them and document them. The Eucharist in particular is a Real, Physical connection with God.

Now, some of the arguments in the Church over the DETAILS of ritual, etc, are somewhat extraneous. In God's eyes, I doubt it really matters if we kneel or stand for the Consecration. I doubt if it really matters if the people respond "and also with you" or "and with your spirit also". But the reason that people debate these things, their deep love and concern for the rituals, ultimately stems from a noble devotion to God Himself, for these rituals are very important part of the means by which we know Him.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now c'mon Form! You can't be serious! And this is not a point of an afterlife or something like that - for that, I think well all have freedom (within cultural constraints) to believe what we will. But really: a christian, believing in one God - or a moslem, believing in one God - what's the difference? If you look at the history of these religions, none! Only Islam is the updated version of Christianity - so being a Christian is kind of using Windows 98 still? You can't be serious about this Hell-stuff anyways. That's just a puerile-metaphysical-void-nightmare -thing most people get over with as they grow up...

This seems to be written very tongue in cheek... I hope it is... The differences between Islam and Christianity are many and varied, and to call Islam an "updated Christianity" is to ignore the numerous contradictions between the two religions. Christians have claimed Jesus as the Son of God since the time of Jesus Himself. Even if you throw out all the Bible as evidence, Jesus was accepted as God by Christians before the 1st Century was out. Islam, started in the 600s, completely disagrees with this. The two may have similarities, but they are not compatible- at all.

And yes, Hell exists. Theologians have jumped all over the place in guessing what it's like, but it exists. And, quite frankly, I have no desire or intention of going there and seeing firsthand what it's like.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So you are going to heaven? Which here is the primary motivation in your life: securing yourself, or being good? This I would call something like crooked utilitarianism (which indeed the "golden rule" can be interpreted as too?). So you are "offered benefits"? Like the store that gives you three for the price of two? Which one do you see better in moral sense: the one that does good without believing to be paid for it, or the one awaiting a nice return?

Just think this question carefully. It's a stinger! Sorry to mention it.

It is possible for two reasons to produce the same results- and to be present in the same person and situation, is it not?

In my own particular case, I will not deny that going to Heaven and avoiding Hell are major reasons for living a Christian life. However, as I live that life, the more I follow it for those "selfish" reasons, the more I want to follow them for the right reasons. I'm far from perfect, and always will be, but there is a genuine interest when helping others, to help them because they need it, and because that is what God would want. It's a very basic "I want to please God" feeling that I feel when being somewhat successful at living a Christian life. The ramifications of "maybe I'll get into Heaven" or "whew! a little further from Hell" are not thoughts that occur to me immediately, but later, if I'm thinking things over too much.

Finally, is it WRONG to want to go to Heaven, and to avoid Hell, and to be Christian for that sole reason? I think not. If you truly want to avoid Hell and get into Heaven, you cannot help but do as God directs, and love your neighbour as yourself, and as if he or she was Jesus in person. And if you start to treat other people as though God was in them (meaning respectfully and lovingly) then you cannot fail but come to love God as well.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And anyhow. What are you going to do there - and what is the meaning of your life here?

I shall love the Lord my God with all my mind and heart, body and soul, and I shall love my neighbour as myself.

Or, at least, that's what I'm going to try and do. There is nothing more than that.