[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

Firstly, I'm not irritated by any of this.

Oh. I must have been reading sarcasm where you didn't intend it.

I see no instance of 'pride' in the Genesis account, which is symbolic as far as I'm concerned.

Symbolic or not, it is still a story of mythic power. In that light at the very least:

And the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will know good and evil."

Oops! I mis-quoted that! There are three additional words that make all the difference:

"you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So yes, there is indeed a desire for wisdom that is used as the bait to lure the woman into the temptation, but it's only the bait. There are three words in the text that the serpent didn't have to say: "be like God". If he had not said them, your contention would stand. However, those three words are there, and they are indicative of pride.

God required them to remain in ignorance.

No. God wanted them to remain faithful to him, and if they had done so, he would have given them more wisdom than they could possibly have hoped for by eating the fruit of that one tree. You'll have to trust me on that, because I've experienced it myself.

Why put the damn tree in the Garden in the first place?

Because it served God's purpose which was sabotaged by the disobedience of Adam.

Why allow the Serpent in? It was a 'test'

Yes.

whether they passed or failed depends on your perspective.

Actually, it depends on God's perspective since He was the one who designed the test. Believe it or not, He wanted Adam (both he and she) to pass the test, and would have rewarded them (and by inheritance us) with the benefits of both the trees of life and knowledge of good and evil. But Adam did not pass the test. However, Jesus did, and that has made all the difference.

For all the undoubted sufferings of humanity over the millenia I'm glad we had the chance to grow up & stand on our own feet & make our own mistakes & become everything we're capable of becoming.

But we haven't grown up. And this is one of Tolkien's major emphases in LotR and the entire legendarium, that we are fighting the long defeat left on our own. We're no better than any other generation, except through the gift of Jesus. I'd be interested to learn (not having HoME) if the long defeat is a consistent theme in the early drafts?

The evidence is in the texts themselves - there is nothing in the later drafts of LotR that is more 'Christian' than the later ones (or than in the published version). He also said that LotR was 'mere' entertainment with no deeper meaning - is that correct in your opinion?

I believe you're referring to Letter # 208? ...

As for 'message': I have none really, if by that you mean the conscious purpose in writing The Lord of the Rings, or preaching, or of delivering myself of a vision of truth specially revealed to me! I was primarily writing an exciting story in an atmosphere and background such as I find personally attractive. But in such a process inevitably one's own taste, ideas, and beliefs get taken up. Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death.

Or were you referring to another letter? This particular one doesn't seem to contradict anything I've contended.

What I do find interesting is that Tolkien's statement in Letter #142 ...

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision

... is stated before publication. Just in case my implication isn't obvious, this means that Tolkien's statement was not a reaction to critics, for no critics had yet read the book. The only critics were those of his own choice, fellow Roman Catholics, who wrote according to the editor's notes "that the book left him with a strong sense of 'a positive compatibility with the order of Grace". So it is two Catholics talking to each other about this work about whom we are 'flies on the wall'.

And he did not say it was a 'Christian' work

Since Catholic is Christian, I have no argument with this.

If there is a significant difference in the later drafts it is in Frodo's behaviour on returning to the Shire. In the early draft he returns as a hero & in fact slays the chief ruffian in hand to hand combat. But I don't see how Frodo's ultimate fate in the published version is specifically 'Christian'.

I'm not sure that this change is necessarily Catholic/Christian, but I see how it could be so construed. What it shows to me is Tolkien's artistic 'nose' for the best turn of plot.

For anyone who is interested...

Thanks for the link. I do notice that the article is entitled "Ways..." rather than "Proofs...." Again, we're flies on the wall overhearing a group of Catholics talking to each other. I shouldn't wonder that you, not seeing the world they do, find some of it objectionable.

davem's assertion of curiosity versus pride drove me to some research, and I found something interesting.

How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of the morning!
You are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the gathering
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the Pit.

The reference to pride is what brought me to this text. What I find interesting is the linkage to Melkor in this, which in Isaiah's writings is understood to be a prophecy with a double audience of both the king of Babylon temporally, and Lucifer eternally. The reference to the north is one thing that caught my eye. Another is how he is cut to the ground. Over time, Melkor lost power until he was chained to a body and wounded with wounds that would not heal.

But back to Legolas' initial inquiry, which I don't think ever got addressed: What about the Elves?

Were they Angels?