[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Davem, are you referring to the corruption of elves into orcs, the revolt of the Noldor, or something else?

What's interesting is the way the Fall of Man goes unmentioned in the Sil writings until very late on. If Men Fell as the Elves (repeatedly) did it is either assumed by Tolkien, or it is not necessary to the plot (which it actually isn't). Tolkien stated the story is about a Fall, that a Fall is necessary. Yet it is only the Fall of the Elves which plays a necessary part in the drama. Indeed, most races don't Fall - there is no Fall of Hobbits. Dwarves or Ents. Even with the Elves its only some of them that Fall - specifically the Noldor. Yet whole groups of Elves are involved in repeated Falls (as you've mentioned).

If Tolkien hadn't written the Athrabeth, or more precisely, if CT hadn't published it, we'd have no reason to believe that Men Fell at all. Of course, we can't ignore the Numenoreans. But they were a relatively small group, & there is no sense that the Rohirrim Fell, or the Dalemen, or even the Dunlendings.

The Athrabeth is the closest thing Tolkien wrote to a work of Christian theology, & I personally felt that the whole piece, while it works as an 'attempt to justify the ways of the (Christian) God to Man' sits a bit ill with the tone of the rest of the Sil writings. It was Tolkien attempting to integrate his faith into his Secondary world, & makes me a bit uncomfortable for that reason.

I wonder, if the wish to see so much religious content in Tolkien's works today is driven by a similar impetus. In the US, there is a mistrust of fantasy within many Christian churches (this was something, as a sheltered European, that I was only made aware of since joining the Downs!) and it strikes me that Tolkien's religious credentials, both as a writer and as a man, are helpful to American Christians who may feel the need to justify their enjoyment of his works.

There does seem to be a need among some Christians to make the Legendarium 'safe' - ie to make it a Christian work. I have a number of books (Birzir's 'Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth', Pearce's 'Man & Myth', Caldecott's 'Secret Fire', Smith's 'Tolkien's Ordinary Virtues', Wright's 'Tolkien in Perspective' & Brunner & Ware's 'Finding God in the Lord of the Rings - there are numerous others) which attempt to demonstrate/confirm the specifically Christian nature of the Books. One is certainly free to do that kind of thing if that is the kind of thing one likes doing, but I think it is a false road.

Of course, Tolkien was himself prone to this retrospective Christianising if his works, but what we actually see is that the starting point of this process was for him the letters he got from Christian correspondents in the years after publication of LotR which questioned the work's orthodoxy. He certainly goes to some long (& quite convoluted) lengths to convince them (& probably himself as well) that there was nothing heretical in the tale.

This is not to ignore the desire he had from the start to contribute to some kind of Moral regeneration of the English people. Apart from a long period in the 1920's (indeed for most of that decade) he was a committed Catholic & regular attender of Mass. But the 20's were the period of greatest development of the Legendarium & in that decade the stories took on the form which they were generally to keep.

My feeling is that he simply never questioned the orthodoxy of the tales till he was challenged to demonstrate it to readers. When he attempted to do so, he struggled. Put simply, there is no specifically 'Christian' dimension to LotR (or most of the Legendarium), or any aspect of it which requires Christian belief (or even any knowledge of Christianity) to make sense. The themes which are picked out by Christian readers as evidence of the work's underlying Christianity can be found in many myths, legends & fairystories. This simple fact is what throws Christians back on the theory LMP has put forward - that the Myths, Legends & Fairystories Tolkien drew on 'actually' contain the truth of the Christian story (even though they pre-existed Christianity by, in some cases, Millennia), because we were all made by the Christian God & in some unconscious way were therefore our ancestors were struggling to express that 'truth' without realising it. A clever theory, & one that liberated both Tolkien & Lewis to use Myth & fairystory in their subcreation, but one for which a great leap of faith is required, there being absolutely no evidence for it.

Of course, Tolkien came to believe his Legendarium was a reflection of Truth, that Eru was the God he worshipped (to a far greater extent than Lewis believed that Aslan 'was' Jesus. But Lewis knew from the start that he was writing a Christian allegory & was being fully orthodox. Tolkien perhaps only realised later that he hadn't been - all his assumptions aside).

In short, the Legendarium is not a 'Christian' work at all - but why should it have to be - well, why should it have to be for us? For Tolkien it had to be a Christian work if only for his own peace of mind. To claim that is what it is in its essential nature is without foundation so far as I can see (& as I say, I've read a fair number of books & articles which claim to show it is).