[davem]

Originally Posted by Legolas

This list is based on the all of the works we have this far. I don't perceive anything else being published. It is useless to throw out quotes because he may have contradicted them in unpublished writings. This matter is not contradicted by anything else we have, so there's no question - it is the way things were in Middle-earth according to JRR, which is what we're looking for in this thread.

New Tolkien material is being published all the time in Vinyar Tengwar, so we can't say that there is no 'new' material out there which may alter our perceptions of the Legendarium. Osanwe Kenta for instance is a major (though short) work which definitely should have been included in HoM-e. CT for his own reasons left it out. Again, CT has edited HoM-e, and any final word on date of writing, relevance, what's included & what's left out was his.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Luthien was an Elda by nature. There is no two ways about it, since, having been born an Incarnate, her nature could not have been Maia. She was infused with the blood of an incarnate Maia, yes, but that does not change that she was an Elda. If you want to disqualify her because of her advantage, that's one thing. But to say she's not even an elf is retarded.

The fact that she had the blood of an incarnate Maia surely makes her more than an Elf. Luthien is unique. She is not pure Eldar. In fact she makes me think of figures like Merlin, Achilles, Cuchulllain (or Jesus) who have one 'human' & one divine parent. These beings, in myth & reality (if you are a believer) are children of this world & the otherworld, & play a very specific role in myth of linking the two worlds & providing a kind of living 'bridge' between them.

I didn't say she wasn't 'even an Elf', I said she was far more than an Elf, & so Feanor cannot be fairly compared with her.

As for "fallen" and "unfallen" Feanor, there's no indication that he was any less powerful in his end than he was in his beginning. Elves did not diminish through physical exertion as clothed/incarnate ealar did. The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist. It therefore does not conflict with Tolkien's later (presumably) note wherein he, as the creator of the mythos, unequivocally states the top three greatest Eldar, side-by-side, and which of the three is the greatest of all. Tolkien is not coyly toying with his reader since this piece was evidently not part of anything he ever expected to be published. Yes, sometimes he messes around and throws things out there only to jerk them back (Gandalf = Manwe?), but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted.

I'm done.

Sorry, but you're still avoiding the central question - which is what did Tolkien mean when he used 'greatest' in this specific context. Luthien was clearly not greater than Feanor in every way - she was not a 'greater' warrior, she was not a 'greater' creative artist, She was not a 'greater' disaster, her ego was not 'greater', she was not physically 'greater' in terms of height or girth. Greatest in what sense is still the issue. And who is supposed to have written these quotes (within the Legendarium)? One could see one of the descendents of Feanor or one of their people (one of the Elves of Eregion for instance) producing the statement that Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, while one of the Elves of Rivendell produced the statement that Luthien was the 'greatest'.

Assuming we're dealing with the figure of 'Tolkien the Translator' being the source of this particular essay we can only say that having read all the available texts (principally the Red Book) he would have formed his own personal & possibly biassed opinion, & opinion cannot be treated as 'fact'.

but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted.

No, all we can say is that he died before he could change his mind. Looking at the way Tolkien changed his mind back & forth we can only talk about any statement of his being his 'last' one not his 'final' one. I suspect when we all get to finally meet up with him his (at that time current) Legendarium will not correspond with what he has left us. It may be slightly or very different, but for certain I'm betting it will not be in any sense 'final'.