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Old 02-28-2006, 05:23 PM   #37
davem
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Kelvars with souls presents a host of problems; their fea must come from Eru also (no vala is capable of creating spirits); now animals arrived in Arda before even the elves (creatures "old and strong") - so incarnate fear would be allowed to awaken before the elves, but dwarves can't? And we are also told the Children of Eru (men and elves) are the creator's own addition to the music - if animals have souls, then they too are an addition, but no one is looking forward to/over them (only poor Radagast ), no one is seeking rule over them and there is no mention of them in the Ainulindale.
This problem only arises if the Great Eagles, Huan, et al are 'simply' animals. If they are incarnate Maiar it doesn't. It seems to me that it is perhaps a question not of whether they possess fea (a 'spirit'), which it would seem they do, as they are technically sentient (they are conscious, can think, suffer, feel pain, etc), but whether they possess sana (mind) ie, whether they are self conscious & have a 'soul'. In M-e a rational being seems to be tri-partite (a division into three again!) - fea-sana-hroa.

The idea that the Great Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax, Roac, etc have no sana doesn't stand up. The idea that along with Orcs & Trolls they are merely 'machines' doesn't work. If Morgoth (& later Sauron?) is simply supplying their motivating force simply begs the question 'Who is supplying the motivating force of the Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax (& why does Gandalf refer to Shadowfax as his 'friend', or Legolas refer to Arod in the same way?. A Wizard & an Elf would not refer to a 'robot' as a friend).

I think the simplest explanation is that (in M-e at least) most animals are made up of fea & hroa, but some also have sana as well. Whether sana is gifted to certain animals by Eru is another question.
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