[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Of course, we would *never* demean your personal experience of the fairy tale, davem, but perhaps it would be more meaningful in terms of discussion and debate for you to explain WHY "extractingly pleasure from pain" is "simply Tolkien's Eucatastrophre on a more mundane level". I personally think that such a statement ought to be clarified and developed, for the benefit of those who might not be able to leap tall buildings as you obviously can.

Well, she's either talking about something along the lines of Eucatastrophe & the happy ever after ending which comes after suffering, or she's talking about masochism, & if its the latter I have to bow out of the discussion as its not really my field.

Isn't this somewhat akin to your notion of the experience of reading? What has she herself develped out of this EXPERIENCE of reading which lead her to ideas about the attraction of fairey? It seems to fit right in with your demands of "experience first, think about later."

Similar - I said I disagreed with certain of her statements & what I percieved (rightly or wrongly) to be her approach to fairy tales. I don't think I said she was absolutely wrong about absolutley everything.

Further to Tatar's concept of fairy tales helping children explore the angxieties of adulthood, does this idea relate to LotR? Tarar suggests that characters change their moral status: the beautiful woman turns out to be unspeakable cruel. Does this idea pertain to Tolkien? Would this explain the inconsistencies in Galadriel's character and the differences between Rivendell and Lothlorien, which we have discussed in other threads?

Some characters change their moral status, some merely change their role

Tatar also makes a profound claim for fairy tales:

Is this true? If not, then it is not especially relevant to a Tolkien board. If true, then what does this say about Tolkien? Was he writing a fairy tale that went against previous fairy, his own particular version of Fairy? If so, why? --NOTE: I am not saying he is wrong if he doesn't do this. I am suggesting we consider why this difference exists and what the difference might mean in terms of understanding his concept of fairy. Coupled with the absence of sex in LotR, and thus the absence of secrets about sex which Tatar believes--rightly or wrongly--exist in fairy--we might be lead on to a greater awareness of what constitutes Tolkien's Fairy.

Well, first I'd say that Tatar is once again telling us 'what fairy tales do', & to be frank, I'd say they're far less didactic in their original forms than she is claiming. As to Tolkien his own version of Faery, we discussed that recently in the 'You say Fairy & I say Faerie' thread, so I think its best carried on there. On the absence of sex in LotR & 'the secrets of sex'. I can only say again that Tolkien dealt with that particular aspect in many other stories within the Legendarium. The fact that he misses it out of one of his stories (though the erotic dimension is not entirely absent for LotR. It is, however presented subtly - as in the mingling of Faramir & Eowyn's hair in the gardens of the Houses of Healing). Sorry, but sex & its 'secrets' are not central to all fairy stories (or all dreams, either, whatever Frued might have said).