[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

They do revere their past (as opposed to their history, which is an entirely different thing, but that is fodder for a different thread), but that's not the same thing as nostalgia.

Tolkien, however, did indeed write a nostalgic revisionary feigned history for "The Mark". (For those of you who might feel as if you're a little 'outside' this particular aspect of the conversation, Bethberry and I are referring to the West Midlands, that part of England with which Tolkien so closely identified himself; this land was known historically as Anglo-Saxon Mercia, which just happens to be the Latinate form of "The Mark".) I know he says so himself ... somewhere. But what does this say to us, beyond the fact that Tolkien wrote about what he loved?

Well, Mr. Mead Hall Keeper, I look forward to this different thread--when, of course, you have time to develope and post it.

Originally Posted by Lal

Funnily enough I've just been reading the passage in The Road to Middle-earth which refers to the Rohirrim. Here Shippey says that Tolkien aimed to recreate not the real Anglo-Saxons but the version of them as seen in poetry and legend. I think he is correct - the real Saxons revered the horse but were not known as great riders in battle, and much Anglo-Saxon culture was in fact concerned with trade and land. They did not ride around with spears looking for battles, much as the Rohirrim sometimes seem to do! Tolkien's 'version' of this culture does seem to be his own vision, rather than what 'actually happened'.

I think as well that there is another difference between the Rohirrim and the 'real' Anglo-Saxons. The Rohirrim are on the cusp of developing a written literature of their own, but they are still in the oral stage; the Anglo-Saxons had a period of relative stability in which to develop a rich culture in England - this was then cut off as it was flowering.

There is that other important aspect of Old English literature -- riddles. You might say Old English literature is riddled with them.

The earliest known collection is in The Exeter Book, some of which are in Latin. The Latin ones are different from the Old English ones, which some scholars have called "literary games". W. P. Ker called them "imaginative thought." Here's an online paper describing Old English riddles and here are some online translations.


Interesting that Tolkien gives central importance to riddling not to the Rohirrim, but to the hobbits--or at least Gollem and Bilbo. Also interesting that riddles are absent from Beowulf. I can't recall that The Battle of Maldon has any, but it's been some time since I read it. Maybe our resident Old English scholars--Squatter and Fordim-- can suggest why-- if indeed it is the case--riddles are absent from the heroic literature.

As for Tolkien's love of the culture which, as Lal says, "was cut off in its flowering"--and to relate this to the question of nostalgia--I know of at least one Old English scholar who used to hand out a chronology which ended with this:

1066 Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

EDIT: Actually, I don't like those five translations. Here's another site with both the OE and Modern English transations: Old English riddle translation