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Bêthberry · 07-05-2002, 08:49 AM

That's an interesting observation, Mark12_30, about the distinction in the talk among Frodo, Merry and Pippin and that of Sam and Frodo. Really interesting, it seems to me.

Aren't Frodo, Merry and Pippin from more prominent Hobbit families? And Sam's family is servant to Bag End, so that Sam is forever calling Frodo 'Master Frodo'. Is it possible that Sam's and Frodo's relationship might be understood better in terms of English class lines than of family relationships? There is somewhere in Tolkien's Letters I think a comment from him that tipping one's hat to the local lord might not do the lord any good but does wonders for the fellow tipping his hat.

What are Tolkien's Letters like in their attitude towards his sons? Does he expect deference from them all the time? Does he see himself as a fount of knowledge and wisdom?

Estelyn Telcontar, although I don't know The Silmarillion well, it strikes me that the three ruling queens of Numenor do not represent terribly good leaders. The rules of succession were changed for Tar-Ancalime. Tar-Telperien was proud and wilful; the rings are forged during her reign. The third queen, Tar-Vanimelde, cared more for the arts than for government and effectively let her consort take over daily rule, which he then kept on her death. Then Miriel was to have been the fourth ruling queen, but she was usurped.

As I recall, there was a superstition in England that was very prominent when Queen Elizabeth I came to the throne, that it was a bad omen when women succeeded to the throne. I wonder if this kind of omen shows itself in the history of Numenor's ruling queens?

Bethberry

[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

07-05-2002, 08:49 AM	#53
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	That's an interesting observation, Mark12_30, about the distinction in the talk among Frodo, Merry and Pippin and that of Sam and Frodo. Really interesting, it seems to me. Aren't Frodo, Merry and Pippin from more prominent Hobbit families? And Sam's family is servant to Bag End, so that Sam is forever calling Frodo 'Master Frodo'. Is it possible that Sam's and Frodo's relationship might be understood better in terms of English class lines than of family relationships? There is somewhere in Tolkien's Letters I think a comment from him that tipping one's hat to the local lord might not do the lord any good but does wonders for the fellow tipping his hat. What are Tolkien's Letters like in their attitude towards his sons? Does he expect deference from them all the time? Does he see himself as a fount of knowledge and wisdom? Estelyn Telcontar, although I don't know The Silmarillion well, it strikes me that the three ruling queens of Numenor do not represent terribly good leaders. The rules of succession were changed for Tar-Ancalime. Tar-Telperien was proud and wilful; the rings are forged during her reign. The third queen, Tar-Vanimelde, cared more for the arts than for government and effectively let her consort take over daily rule, which he then kept on her death. Then Miriel was to have been the fourth ruling queen, but she was usurped. As I recall, there was a superstition in England that was very prominent when Queen Elizabeth I came to the throne, that it was a bad omen when women succeeded to the throne. I wonder if this kind of omen shows itself in the history of Numenor's ruling queens? Bethberry [ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ] __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.