[Bêthberry]

Well, I'm late to the debate again. I hope no one will mind if I try to cover some of the points raised initially.

But first, about Tolkien's ideas concerning friendship between men and women: A colleague, several years ago when we were discussing whether the sexual revolution had indeed improved relations between the sexes, commented that the main difference between her life and her daughter's was that her daughter enjoyed friendships with boys at high school and this was not ridiculed. My kids aren't quite there yet for me to say if this is true. However, I have had close friendships with men which continue, but they started similarly to Child's, in grad school. My husband also has a close colleague from grad school who is female; she has become a good friend of mine also, but we talk about different things.

Now to return to the initial question:

Lush you are right that attraction to power is a good part of Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn. What I think is confusing is how power and sexuality are mixed in her characterization. And while she did serve a frustrating job, nonetheless I don't think it can be said she was disrespected, for she is made the acting leader of her people and Aragorn is right to point out her responsibility to them. Perhaps what I find unusual is this surprising complexity of characterization, given that so many of the characters do not have this muddled depiction.

littlemanpoet and Estelyn, I read Ioreth's garrulousness as somewhat akin to the deafness of Chaucer's Wife of Bath, a mix of bathos and wisdom. Why would Tolkien have used a female character to depict this Nordic attitude towards sexuality?

Child, I like your comparison to the 50's very much, and I would agree about the importance of showing high respect for marriage, family and community, but I still am bothered by the fact that the only role for the remaining women is that of marriage. I have been reading Margaret Visser's The Geometry of Love, a study of the symbolism and meaning in an ordinary church in Rome, St. Agnes'. She has an interesting interpretation of the early Christian martyrs who were young females who resisted the Roman values of patriarchal marriage. It reminds me that in Catholicism, there always was a role and place for the unmarried woman, with religious orders providing very female-centred communities (which did not develop in Protestantism). This is not to deny your point about the importance of marriage in the communities in LOTR, but to question why women should be so limited.

And as to the point that Tom and Goldberry would be diminishing along with the elves, I'm not sure we can clearly assume that, for Tom is, of course, enigmatic. The very fact that Gandalf seeks Tom out before he sails west suggests that this is a last opportunity to visit with Tom. It remains to me a glaring omission that Goldberry is not named. I guess this is where I find that Carpenter's biography of Tolkien has given me a certain filter through which to consider the depiction of women in LOTR.

And, finally, I get tired of the fact that all these women are supposed to be so darn beautiful. Maybe I just don't have enough sympathy with myth or legend, but as I recall, Charlotte Bronte made Jane Eyre plain to prove to her sisters that a heroine did not need to be beautiful.

Bethberry