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Child of the 7th Age · 06-29-2002, 06:27 PM

Wow! These are interesting observations.

Bethberry-- About the diminishing of the voice of women in the Fourth Age. I actually think that what you are dealing with here is not a gender issue but a ramification of the shift away from the Elves, Valar, Maiar, Nature Spirits, etc. towards the age of Man.

One of the main problems of the Third Age is that vast stretches of land and cities seem to have been depopulated. The Middle-earth atlas goes into this quite a bit.
The one place that does stand out with this vibrant life is the Shire, but we are told this is only because the Rangers are protecting them. So one of the immediate needs of the Fourth Age was a baby boom.

If we look at what happened in World War II and then the 1950s, we can get a real sense of how, after a great victory, people turn to their personal lives. Now, the 50s is not a favorite period of mine, but it sure beat the 20s (that period which was essentially a response to the ending of WWI and which saw a rejection of many traditional forms) in terms of values and commitment to family. The three marriages at the end of the LotR symbolize to me this renewed commitment to life.

It's just like Frodo said: he could go anywhere and do anything as long as he knew the wonderful Shire stood behind him, even if he couldn't put his own feet there. As Tolkien said in his Letters, this was the whole point of the quest to destroy the Ring--so that the kind of vibrant life which Frodo valued in the Shire could be respected, continued, and expanded throughout the land.

So, to me, Rosie and Arwen and Eowyn are very important in their marriages--the need for renewed life. It is true that this is a "traditional" female role, but, to me, that does not make it less important. And I am quite sure in each of those partnerships, the women would have taken a very active part in their world. It's just that, unfortunately, Tolkien stopped writing so we don't learn as much about what they did!

The voices that depart are not based on gender, but race. No longer does Galadriel stay, but so do all the other Elves leave, both male and female. Also note, Gandalf goes to Tom purely for vacation--not for advice or consultation. Goldberry was undoubtedly there as well but her name was not mentioned. Again, Tom--whatever he is!!--represents something above and beyond the realm of Man proper. His age, like that of the Elves, is dminishing. The same would be true for Goldberry.

I guess the question then becomes, at least for me, is not whether the voice of Women was receding, but this: Did Elven women have more authority, respect, independence etc. than the Women of the Fourth Age? That is a debatable point, I think. I would need to think about it. Galadriel was certainly excceptional, even among Elven women.

If Tolkien had been here, perhaps he would have answered it this way. The figure of Galadriel was consciously modelled on that of the Virgin Mary. He stated this in his Letters. So Tolkien knew that, when Galadriel passed from Middle-earth, an even more important female figure would eventually take her place, that of Mary. Admittedly, this would be in the distant future. But I think he would say that, for him at least, Mary represented a level of spiritual authority and femininity which outclassed even the great Galadriel. And just as Galadriel came to represent for Tolkien the very best of the Elven tradition so Mary came to represent for him the heart and soul of Man. But, again, unfortunately, this lays outside the books themselves, although we have many hints of it in his Letters.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

06-29-2002, 06:27 PM	#23
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Wow! These are interesting observations. Bethberry-- About the diminishing of the voice of women in the Fourth Age. I actually think that what you are dealing with here is not a gender issue but a ramification of the shift away from the Elves, Valar, Maiar, Nature Spirits, etc. towards the age of Man. One of the main problems of the Third Age is that vast stretches of land and cities seem to have been depopulated. The Middle-earth atlas goes into this quite a bit. The one place that does stand out with this vibrant life is the Shire, but we are told this is only because the Rangers are protecting them. So one of the immediate needs of the Fourth Age was a baby boom. If we look at what happened in World War II and then the 1950s, we can get a real sense of how, after a great victory, people turn to their personal lives. Now, the 50s is not a favorite period of mine, but it sure beat the 20s (that period which was essentially a response to the ending of WWI and which saw a rejection of many traditional forms) in terms of values and commitment to family. The three marriages at the end of the LotR symbolize to me this renewed commitment to life. It's just like Frodo said: he could go anywhere and do anything as long as he knew the wonderful Shire stood behind him, even if he couldn't put his own feet there. As Tolkien said in his Letters, this was the whole point of the quest to destroy the Ring--so that the kind of vibrant life which Frodo valued in the Shire could be respected, continued, and expanded throughout the land. So, to me, Rosie and Arwen and Eowyn are very important in their marriages--the need for renewed life. It is true that this is a "traditional" female role, but, to me, that does not make it less important. And I am quite sure in each of those partnerships, the women would have taken a very active part in their world. It's just that, unfortunately, Tolkien stopped writing so we don't learn as much about what they did! The voices that depart are not based on gender, but race. No longer does Galadriel stay, but so do all the other Elves leave, both male and female. Also note, Gandalf goes to Tom purely for vacation--not for advice or consultation. Goldberry was undoubtedly there as well but her name was not mentioned. Again, Tom--whatever he is!!--represents something above and beyond the realm of Man proper. His age, like that of the Elves, is dminishing. The same would be true for Goldberry. I guess the question then becomes, at least for me, is not whether the voice of Women was receding, but this: Did Elven women have more authority, respect, independence etc. than the Women of the Fourth Age? That is a debatable point, I think. I would need to think about it. Galadriel was certainly excceptional, even among Elven women. If Tolkien had been here, perhaps he would have answered it this way. The figure of Galadriel was consciously modelled on that of the Virgin Mary. He stated this in his Letters. So Tolkien knew that, when Galadriel passed from Middle-earth, an even more important female figure would eventually take her place, that of Mary. Admittedly, this would be in the distant future. But I think he would say that, for him at least, Mary represented a level of spiritual authority and femininity which outclassed even the great Galadriel. And just as Galadriel came to represent for Tolkien the very best of the Elven tradition so Mary came to represent for him the heart and soul of Man. But, again, unfortunately, this lays outside the books themselves, although we have many hints of it in his Letters. sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.