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Bêthberry · 06-29-2002, 12:30 PM

I am enjoying everyone's thoughts here. It is a point well made to argue that Tolkien was able to depict women separate from sexual objects. (I think this was Lush's idea.) I also like Birdie's point that Tolkien expanded traditional quest roles to include women. I hadn't thought of looking at the question that way.

Everyone's comments here make me reconsider my view of Eowyn. I have always been of two minds about her.

Her first, awakening experience of male sexuality immediately causes her to forget her duties and responsibilities. I'm uncomfortable with this depiction of female sexuality, that it is something disruptive, particularly because none of the other female characters are given as much characterization in terms of their sexuality. And I am uncomfortable with the way in which her 'healing' involves her repudiation of an active role in favour of a traditional role in marriage.

It is possible I am not seeing the role of the marriages in a positive light. On another thread, Child suggested that the book ends positively with the celebration of so many marriages, a way to integrate female experience.

What I wonder about is actually a loss of female voice. There is no mention of Goldberry at the end, when Gandalf wishes to return to visit Tom Bombadil and I see this as related to the desecration of the natural world of the Shire. Galadriel, the powerful queen, sails west, and no other woman steps up to take on her role. I admire very much the way in which Gandalf shows respect for Ioreth, and the way in which the talkative old gossip holds so much lore which is important for the unfolding of the truth, yet I don't feel that his respect--or her worth, for that matter--is adequately acknowledge by others in the story.

What I wonder about is whether Tolkien is suggesting that, in the fourth age, there will be diminished respect for women, diminished roles.

Perhaps I ask too much.

Bethberry

And BTW, Gimli, have you ever thought about women in the Bible such as Deborah, Judith, and the story of Jael and Sisera? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

06-29-2002, 12:30 PM	#14
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	I am enjoying everyone's thoughts here. It is a point well made to argue that Tolkien was able to depict women separate from sexual objects. (I think this was Lush's idea.) I also like Birdie's point that Tolkien expanded traditional quest roles to include women. I hadn't thought of looking at the question that way. Everyone's comments here make me reconsider my view of Eowyn. I have always been of two minds about her. Her first, awakening experience of male sexuality immediately causes her to forget her duties and responsibilities. I'm uncomfortable with this depiction of female sexuality, that it is something disruptive, particularly because none of the other female characters are given as much characterization in terms of their sexuality. And I am uncomfortable with the way in which her 'healing' involves her repudiation of an active role in favour of a traditional role in marriage. It is possible I am not seeing the role of the marriages in a positive light. On another thread, Child suggested that the book ends positively with the celebration of so many marriages, a way to integrate female experience. What I wonder about is actually a loss of female voice. There is no mention of Goldberry at the end, when Gandalf wishes to return to visit Tom Bombadil and I see this as related to the desecration of the natural world of the Shire. Galadriel, the powerful queen, sails west, and no other woman steps up to take on her role. I admire very much the way in which Gandalf shows respect for Ioreth, and the way in which the talkative old gossip holds so much lore which is important for the unfolding of the truth, yet I don't feel that his respect--or her worth, for that matter--is adequately acknowledge by others in the story. What I wonder about is whether Tolkien is suggesting that, in the fourth age, there will be diminished respect for women, diminished roles. Perhaps I ask too much. Bethberry And BTW, Gimli, have you ever thought about women in the Bible such as Deborah, Judith, and the story of Jael and Sisera? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.