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davem · 11-29-2005, 06:05 AM

LmP

I think its possible to interpret all those references to 'meaning' in another way. I was listening again last night to Ronald Hutton's talk at Birmingham 'Tolkien the Pagan'. He made the point that the version of the Silmarillion that provided the background to LotR was the one produced in the 20's (a decade which he refers to in a letter to his son Michael, describing how, due to his 'wickedness & sloth' he failed to go to mass, & where he had virtually put aside his faith), which was far more 'pagan' in form & style. The Valar were little different to the Classical Gods, with their tendency to infighting & squabbling, their marriages & production of children, etc.

Hutton made the point that Tolkien was deeply upset at accusations by early reviewers that LotR was 'athiestic' or agnostic & grabbed eagerly onto any suggestions from readers that suggested a Christian interpretation of Galadriel as the Virgin Mary, Lembas as the Host, etc. Tolkien wanted very much at that time to be accepted as a Catholic author & played up those interpretations. Remember that it was in the post-LotR period that he embarked on a major re-write of the Sil, mainly with the intention of bringing into line with his Catholic faith.

No, to the references to 'meaning'. The references are very vague. I think a far more 'pagan' alternative to Eru is available – Wyrd: the Northern equivalent of 'fate'/'destiny'. This is an impersonal 'force' (although given symbolic form in the Norns). All mentions of 'meaning' in the text can be interpreted in the light of Wyrd. The characters have destinies to fulfil, but this doesn't have to be interpreted in a Christian sense.

As I said, if read in the light of the (later) Sil (ie the one produced & published by Christopher in 1977) LotR can be interpreted as you suggest, & appears to conform with Christianity, with Eru playing the role of the Christian God in the way you suggest. If read in the light of the pre-LotR ('pagan') Sil our interpretation may be very different. In that work Eru exists but plays little part in events, leaving that sort of thing to the Gods, who, as I said, are hardly perfect representations of Angelic beings.

11-29-2005, 06:05 AM	#181
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	LmP I think its possible to interpret all those references to 'meaning' in another way. I was listening again last night to Ronald Hutton's talk at Birmingham 'Tolkien the Pagan'. He made the point that the version of the Silmarillion that provided the background to LotR was the one produced in the 20's (a decade which he refers to in a letter to his son Michael, describing how, due to his 'wickedness & sloth' he failed to go to mass, & where he had virtually put aside his faith), which was far more 'pagan' in form & style. The Valar were little different to the Classical Gods, with their tendency to infighting & squabbling, their marriages & production of children, etc. Hutton made the point that Tolkien was deeply upset at accusations by early reviewers that LotR was 'athiestic' or agnostic & grabbed eagerly onto any suggestions from readers that suggested a Christian interpretation of Galadriel as the Virgin Mary, Lembas as the Host, etc. Tolkien wanted very much at that time to be accepted as a Catholic author & played up those interpretations. Remember that it was in the post-LotR period that he embarked on a major re-write of the Sil, mainly with the intention of bringing into line with his Catholic faith. No, to the references to 'meaning'. The references are very vague. I think a far more 'pagan' alternative to Eru is available – Wyrd: the Northern equivalent of 'fate'/'destiny'. This is an impersonal 'force' (although given symbolic form in the Norns). All mentions of 'meaning' in the text can be interpreted in the light of Wyrd. The characters have destinies to fulfil, but this doesn't have to be interpreted in a Christian sense. As I said, if read in the light of the (later) Sil (ie the one produced & published by Christopher in 1977) LotR can be interpreted as you suggest, & appears to conform with Christianity, with Eru playing the role of the Christian God in the way you suggest. If read in the light of the pre-LotR ('pagan') Sil our interpretation may be very different. In that work Eru exists but plays little part in events, leaving that sort of thing to the Gods, who, as I said, are hardly perfect representations of Angelic beings. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."