[Dain]

Yes, so there are lots of "are orcs immortal" threads, but why not just lets us humor it. Apparently "Morgoth's Ring" is a good section, but I don't have that book, and there is also a thread in the Cannon Silmarillion project here (see Orcish Fear), so look there.

Basically, the way I see the discussion is this:
A) Silmarillion says orcs were corrupted elves. The plus sides of this are that they make perfect enemies for elves (anti-elves) if this is true, and we know that Morgoth/Sauron can't create life, and Men don't seem to have been around yet. However, this brings up questions about where orcs go when they die, and this kinslaying thing, and whether they are immortal (which is actually supported in places I feel).

B) Later, it seems Tolkien changed his mind, because he wrote very clearly in the margin of one of his letters "orcs are not elvish". Now, it's not clear what that means to me, but he was obviously troubled by the same things we've all been troubled by.

C) Apparently, there is also support for orcs coming from beasts, elves, men and maiar, in differring measure. There would then be a lot of beastial, horde/slave orcs, and some more aware slave-driver orcs (Grishnahk? Snaga?), and some very powerful captain orcs (Bolg? Shagrat?). (Too me, though, most orcs seem about the level of men in their understanding of whats going on, some are just smarter than others and therefore rise to higher positions and live longer.)

I'm not sure how this would get resolved, but I still feel that elves are the best literary choice, and that they were perverted to such an extent that they were no longer elves in any way. However, I think Tolkien changed his mind and was set against this in the end. Hope this helps you and doesn't annoy anyone who's had a similar discussion. Cheers!

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]