[Eonwe]

well, as i see it, the elvin coalition did fairly well even with the treachury of men. it would not surprise me to hear that melkor suspained infinately more losses than the elves did. i think somewere it says that elves took out orcs like a wind blowing dry leaves, or something like that. if you take out hurin, the battle goes just like planned, only the gondolindrim cannot flee the field of battle. eveyone is forced to make a last despate stand, in which elves will inflict many more casualties than they actually sustain, but will eventually be ground down by sheer numbers. (it was always my impression that morgoth used legions of vastly inferior troops, but evened it out by using more). i think taht maxamizes the carnage, doesn't it: total anihilation?