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Originally Posted by Anguirel
I believe Bethberry's point still applies. She's not questioning Saruman on the grounds that he is not heroic, (which is debatable-he could be seen as heroic in the Macbeth sense) but rather because several stages of the process of his fall from grace are not documented, a valid objection.
We do see the workings of his jealousy against Gandalf corrupting him, however. But the tantalising description of him seeking out too much knowledge-in other words, experiencing the fall of Faustus, of Icarus, or of Dante's Odysseus-is not covered in detail, and this is to my mind the more interesting aspect.
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Quite so, yes. As readers, we really are not allowed to experience vicariously his fall, as we are asked, I think, to experience Frodo's anquish and even Gollem's terrible fate.
But does the concept of tragedy incorporate only a fall from greatness, or does it also involve the terrible way in which a character tries to avoid the fall or the fate, but whose very effort makes the fall inevitable? Is irony part of tragedy or only pity? Do the gods toy with tragic characters?
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Originally Posted by Essex
To me, I need to feel some apathy towards a figure for them to be seen as tragic to me. this may be an incorrect interpretation of Tragedy, but this is what I feel nonetheless.
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Not to question your interpretation of tragedy, but I don't quite understand what you mean by 'apathy' here,
Essex.