Ah,
Hilde, I canna wait for questionnaires or for
Sauce to finish his Wolfman role.
This is the kind of thing that interests me about
SaucepanMan's ideas. I'm going to copy a few short posts between
davem and
myself from
Estelyn's excellent thread,
Not all those who wander are lost.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bethberry
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Of course the first character we meet in the whole Legendarium is a wanderer - Eriol/Aelfwine the mariner - which is another thing that strikes me - how many of Tolkien's wanderers have links to the Sea - Tuor, Earendel, the father-son pairs in Lost Road & Notion Club Papers, Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Sam, Legolas & Gimli - even the more 'static' characters like Elrond & Galadriel - all finally seek the Sea. Even in SoWM Smith finds the Sea of Windless Storm.The Kingdoms of Gondor & Arnor are founded by Men who come from over the Sea.
The Road goes ever on, & it seems that that Road leads to the Sea - & ultimately over it to what lies beyond. [end davem quote]
Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by davem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bb
Well, what would we expect from an author who was writing a mythology for an island nation? [end Bb quote]
I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bethberry
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.[end davem quote]
I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by davem
Quoted by Bethberry:
I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society? [end Bb quote]
Yes.
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Clearly, for Tolkien "The Sea" was an abstract concept of some particular meaning, as several of us Downers are exploring on
Esty's thread. Within the secondary world of Middle-earth I can accept it value as a trope of enlightenment, but when or if discussion begins to treat 'the Sea' as a true universal, then to me, it demonstrates how once culture generates from itself an ideal which it universalises as if it applies to everyone.
From the Old Engish poem "The Seafarer", through to Defoe's "Robinson Crusoe" to John Masefield's poem "I must go down to the sea again", the sea has held a special and particular meaning for the English nation, an island people surrounded by water with naval traditions both glorious and horrendous. Some might even say that England has a premium on pirates, too, as well as Her Majesty's Navy. It has become a kind of 'shortcut' trope where those who belong to the culture understand its lure and appeal, its many layered possibilities of meaning, from terror to spiritual truth.
The sea is a trope for many kinds of things in several cultures. The Bible abounds in shipwreck stories and metaphors for it--even beyond the story of the Parting of the Red Sea. Tolkien even refers, in his letter to one of his sons about life, love, marriage and women, to "this shipwreck"meaning the disasterous nature of life to flounder on shoals.
But to assume that the Sea is always and ever a trope of profound spiritual meaning which everyone longs for is to prioritise the English cultural experience as the universal model. What is the sea, for example, in the desert cultures of Africa? What is the sea in the aboriginal mythologies of the Native Peoples of North America? In East Indian culture?
My point isn't so much to disprove
davem's point but to suggest, modestly, that the values which The Sea plays in Tolkien are not necessarily values which are easily read by people of other cultures. Nor should we glibly assume that Tolkien's The Sea is in fact The Truth.
And now back to our regularly scheduled quest for the questionnaire....