[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

That something might have ended up somewhat different from its genesis, but to say that TH does not belong with or 'inside' the Legendarium is to force a particular form of relationship on the works, one which denies or overlooks or denigrates the illogic nature of literary creation. It also assumes that you can fully and completely identify "a Legendarium", which is also false.

From On Fairy Stories:

(The sub-creator) makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it what he relates is ''true': it accords with the laws of that world.[/QUOTE]

The Elves, Trolls, Dwarves, etc of TH do not accord with the 'laws' of the Legendarium. Therefore they do not belong there.

Originally Posted by Mr U

I can, if you like, cite other instances in which Tolkien made efforts to harmonize TH with LotR. You would disqualify TH because of an oversight, one of the "many defects, minor and major", which Tolkien owned in the foreword to LotR?

This is fascinating. I state that the geography of TH does not match with that of LotR. You quote a passage that confirms my statement & somehow that proves me wrong! The very effort required to make TH fit - which CT states he failed to do - shows that it was never fully or successfullly integrated - which is what I've been saying all along - though I suppose this also proves that I'm wrong as it shows I'm again right. What Tolkien realised, clearly is that the more he attempted to make TH fit the more he realised it wouldn't, so he simply gave up on it.

Can you show me, outside of reference to this letter, how the dwarves of TH are appreciably different from the dwarves of LotR? Or the Sil, for that matter, in which Dwarves as individual characters hardly appear at all?

So its ok for you to dismiss any of Tolkien's writings that don't 'suit'? You can really see the Naugrim of the First Age pulling out concealed clarinets & double bases & singing a comic song about doing the washing up? Perhaps that's how they psyched themselves up to dispatch Thingol?

Originally Posted by Lalwende

They do work together though, despite being diverse, and Tolkien appreciated the relationship, despite his perfectionism.

No, Tolkien (wrongly) saw the existence of TH as a fait a compli - which is the reason for so many abortive attempts to make it fit. Also for his regret over its style & content.

LotR was not intended to be part of the legendarium, it was intended to be the sequel to the Hobbit! It then became part of the legendarium, just as the Hobbit did.

No, LotR was intended to be part of the Legendarium. The sequel to TH, the 'New Hobbit' wasn't so intended, but by the time it had become LotR it was intentionally part of the Legendarium. In short, it was only when it had broken away from the fairy story world of TH in Tolkien's mind (to the extent that he had become so uncomfortable with TH that he had to re-write Riddles in the Dark & completely change Gollum's character) & become part of the Legendarium that TH caused him so many problems & so much 'stress'. The sad thing is that because of LotR taking on that role he became dissatisfied with TH. It lost something in Tolkien's mind (hence the re-writing) because he (erroniously imo) felt it had to be put in the service of LotR. Poor Bilbo, say I..