Quote:
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Originally Posted by burrahobbit
My point has been missed again
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Mine as well (see post 25)
You seem to be on two extreme ends of the rope I try to hop over in the middle of
Performance analogy may be bended just enough to suit my needs, though
Indeed, going
beyond something does not imply that something is changed at all.
If you look at men and elves as
audience in the concert hall, than elves would be spectators who have no other choice but to sit the concert out to the end, while men may walk out of it any time the wish. Or, even, are given chance to listen to one part only and than are quickly tossed out of the hall. While seated, each spectator is free to merely listen, or to sing along or to whistle out his/her dissapproval. If elves walk out of the hall, they find that they are not allowed to walk to the actual street, but have some time on their own in the vestibule and are requested to go back in after a while (unless they were tossing eggs at the stage. Than they sit it out in the vestibule till the final curtain)
But in order for the analogy not to be lopsided as it is, let us add that by the end of the performance the audience is requested to ascend the stage and join in the chorus. And while elves sit in there waiting for the final curtain to go down, not even sure that after the last chord of the concert master of ceremonies will ask them to ascend at all, the men, once tossed out, find to their surprise that, though they left the concert hall, they are lead round by back streets to enter it from the backside and be arranged in the backstage in order to strike a chord once requested, though audience in the hall does not see them yet behind the backs of the main performers. And, for the 'shaping', they also find that though they are invited, they are free to refuse and not go round backstreets, but go and have a milkshake in the nearest McDonalds instead.
Elven freedom in the case is ascend/not ascend, and while actual concert is still on, listen/block one's ears in the corner of the hall and whistle out loud
Some of the former performers are there in the hall too (Istari - human forms). Saruman is free to whistle and throw rotten eggs at the stage, but is equally free to abstain from activity as described, and is urged towards option two by Gandalf, who actually is singing along, not merely listening