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Originally Posted by burrahobbit
If a fellow can freely make moral decisions, can he not make the decision not to point swords at his little brother and get kicked out of his house? I'm thinking, maybe he chooses to give him a hug instead and then they all have cake? Maybe then he wouldn't get stabbed in the face to death later on while he is staying at somebody else's house?
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Feanor chooses his road, but not his destination. Of course, the further down a particular road one goes the harder it is to turn around & go back & choose a different road...
Which is another major problem - Turin is not bound by the Music. Is Glaurung? Turin is driven (by whom & why?) to overcome his 'fate', but in so doing he actually determines it. I'd say Turin's fate is not in the hands of Morgoth or anyone but himself. He clearly believes that he is not bound by the Music, that he can be free to live his own life, & that's exactly what he does. None of the things he suffers come from Morgoth or even directly from the Music. He
is Master of (his) doom - & he is also mastered by it - by his own,
self-wrought doom.
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We know not when the 'pretty quick' part of it came in.
Yes we do: immediately when he entered The World.
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As regards Saruman - if he was bound by his decisions made during the Music why would Gandalf make such an effort to get him to repent at Isengard?
Because that's what Gandalf Sang about.
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I don't believe they sang about what they would do in each & every individual situation. Certain events were fixed before time, but as I said the way in which those events came about were a result of the moral choices made by individuals. The idea that the Ainur sang not just the things that would happen, but each individual thought & decision they would make seems too much of a stretch - they did not, after all, sing as a choir in unison, but singly or as small groups - at least at first. Then Melkor's themes intervene & there is conflict which prevents any of them seeing the bigger picture. So, some of the things individual Ainur sang would be in conflict with what other's sang, simply because they would not all have known what each other had contributed to the Music.
So, I don't think we're dealing with everything being foreordained down to the smallest detail, but with generalities & specific, unavoidable, events. Cerain things
would happen, certain individuals were destined from eternity to do certain things, be in certain places, but, as I said, how & why they would get there would be down to them.
And you also have to answer the really difficult question - maybe the Valar & Maiar
were acting out their own part in the Music, but who set out the unavoidable fate of the Elves? That could only have been Eru Himself - & if he did that, & fix their fate in stone, then how could they be judged on their actions let alone on their moral choices?
The Music determines the fate of Arda & the Elves, being bound to Arda are bound up with its fate. Men are not bound to Arda & it is this very fact that gives them the unique freedom to act that they have. Their link with Arda is temporary - they are
in it but not
of it, therefore its 'rules' (ie the Music) are not so binding on them - if they
were they would not be 'mortal', they would not be able to leave it so 'easily'. It is the fact that they are mortal (the 'Gift of Death') that means that they have a freedom to act 'outside the 'rules'.
(I notice that I seem to be at least in part responsible for an unaccustomed verbosity in our beloved Burrahobbit
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