[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Back to the 'baggage' thing.......

davem, Eomer set up this thread to discuss a variety of ideas concerning the concept of the long defeat. He did not limit the discussion to textual matters.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The diminishing of things is one aspect of Tolkien's stories that has always fascinated me. The idea that things generally get worse or weaker over time certainly makes for less happy endings. It adds to the tragedy. There are numerous examples: the decline of Middle-earth in general; the Elves; Numenor; the race of Men; the Hobbits and the Dwarves. The zenith of their greatness was reached fairly swiftly - maybe Numenor was more complex - and the descent to the (perhaps illusionary) nadir took a much longer time.

I would particularly like to know if this theme is ultimately religious. I know almost nothing about Catholicism, Christianity or religion in general. Is it anything to do with the Garden of Eden?

What it does do is go against a staple of Romanticism or the Enlightenment, namely that human achievment, wisdom and greatness keeps increasing.

Any thoughts? As I suggested, I can hardly bear to imagine a Middle-earth with lots of happy and glorious endings. It wouldn't be right.

Therefore, this is thread in which we can discuss, if you will, the validity of the concept of the long defeat. It is not a matter of clarifying what Tolkien meant so much as considering concepts of history. It is thus not a thread in which you can throw baggage at others simply because they wish for discussion's sake to consider other ways of thinking about history. You, after all, did bring in Blake.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Hurry back, because I want you to explain this a little more. Are you suggesting that we have moved away from beauty as a signifier for 'class' or 'taste' or even virtue? As I find that the world is just as prejudiced a place as ever about 'beauty'. I've only to open a women's magazine and peruse the grot therein about suntans, diets and plastic surgery to have my suspicions confirmed.

As regards the beauty of the Elves within Arda, I simply go along with Tolkien's notions of their beauty, much as I accept the notions of beauty portrayed by artists from different periods in history reflect changing tastes which may not correspond with my own.

However, I would be slightly perturbed by the notion that beauty equals virtue in Tolkien's world. If Tolkien intended this to be the case then there are many exceptions. There are some Elves who are clearly not virtuous, just as there are some supposedly odd looking (according to our norms, which tend more towards the Elvish) characters such as Treebeard, Dwarves, Hobbits, Gandalf, Ghan-buri-Ghan etc who are virtuous.

Sorry, I was cross-posting and missed your earlier post. For now, quickly, I'll say that I don't think we can generalise that people enjoy embalming art and culture because I don't think the tourists who visit England and traipse around its ruins reflect the full range of people's interests. And, in fact, I think one reason why so many do traipse around your ruins is that in North America we tend not to have so many--and those we do have don't go back two thousand years!

I'll reply to this one now.

You are quite right that certain images of beauty are shoved down our throats via the mass media. But what has changed is that we are not culturally dependent upon one image, one form, one source any more, much as Madison Avenue or Hollywood would have us believe. There really is a wider appreciation (at least in my culture) of a variety of forms of beauty. IQ tests no longer have questions based upon prioritizing one form (white) over another (Amerind or Black), just as art no longer has to be "modern" in order to make it into art galleries and just as music has its alternative genres, even in country music! Cultural Studies has widened our concept of possibilities, as has Multi-culturalism. At least here.

As for the beauty/virtue thing, in one letter Tolkien discusses evil and beauty, but I am again rushed and cannot find it. I really have to start using sticky notes in my copy of the Letters as I can never find what I want at the right time.

The interesting point for me is which side of the physical beauty debate the narrator 'sides' with. We have the hobbits who rigorously defend their size and worth, but the narrator at least at certain places in the texts, does not show an appreciation of their pov. I must get my act together and post this more fully on the CxC thread.

But, I say again, I had understood Eomer's intent here as an open discussion of a variety of theories of beauty, progress, change, rather than simply one which regurgitates Tolkien's texts. "As a concept to live by..." sort of thing. After all, if we can compare Tolkien with Harry Potter, why can't we take Tokien's ideas and consider them in the light of those of other writers?