[alatar]

Thanks all for their posts, as I wasn't sure that this thread even had a theme.

As shelob states, it would seem that Hobbits eat, smoke and pour over family history - at least that would be something, though maybe not much use in regards to the world outside of the Shire.

This idea has me intrigued though...not only in Tolkiens works (as is more likely to be discussed here) but more in our own world. I personally have a strong desire to learn as much as I possibly can but am daily faced with people who don't give two cents worth of thought to things which not only could but will effect them, and yet these people just shrug it off as being unimportant. Our unknown regions may not be actual regions as they were in Tolkien's books but they're equally as important.

Agreed. Why is exploration so downplayed? Me thinks that we're too busy being entertained to set aside some time to see what's 'over there.'

Though LOTR has no explorers (actually, we, the readers, are exploring ME via the Fellowship's footsteps), this makes some sense as the story line has no room for such. Tolkien does have explorers in the Sil.

Originally Posted by anguirel

I think there is actually a direct correlation here. There are, broadly speaking, two types of knowledge in LOTR-practical experience, intelligence, and discoveries (identified with "masculinity"), as opposed to wisdom, lore, and intuition (identified with "femininity"). While it is not wrong to possess the former-indeed it is admirable-it can obscure the still more important latter asset. (It does not always do so; witness Gandalf, who is practical and intuitive, and realises that intuition can be a solution to practical problems.)

Though I dislike the genderization of the types, I agree with your assessment. One of the problems with me and science is that (at times) it does not allow for intuition. Gandalf was definitely the best of both worlds; an inquisitive mind with a compassionate heart. His was not a mind of metal and gears, yet he understood these along with what motivates people.

And in the end, Sauron falls to enchantment, mercy, intuition and providence, while orchestrating a militarist and practical strategy (in contrast with Aragorn, who is led by friendship and compassion.)

So you are saying that the good side use both types of knowledge. I would disagree as Sauron not only orchestrates a militaristic and practical strategy (as does the good side) but also makes use of wisdom and lore. What he does not account for, as he does not understand/know it, is, as you say, mercy, compassion, love and friendship.

Originally Posted by lindil

Well Alatar, despite being one of those who aided the ban on GMO's in the first gov't [Mendocino county] in the US, and having a friend whose mom developed a brain tumour after, 'coincidentally' being a cell phone 'quality control' person, meaning she turned them on and did a test dial - all day long...

Sorry to hear about your friend's mother, and I do not make light of her affliction, yet anecdotal evidence is not science.

I know there are threads related to this whole topic, but I think the gist of the point is that 'scientific inquiry' divorced from intuition/nature is surely a road paved to hades.

Possibly, yet the absence of scientific inquiry is another road to the same location. Hoping that the mumakil never show up again to harass Minas Tirith is nice, but learning how to counter the same would be prudent.

It is these knots, created by Sauron, the ring-making Elves, Saruman etc that the Fellowship and ultimately M-E has to battle through to get to a 'Golden Age' of Aragorn's reconstituted High Kingship. And then of course that new found balance has to be vigiliantly maintained. Re-won, by each person, in each moment...

Agreed. One needs to get up each day and start running, or the world will run you over. It's that Red Queen thing. Again, as one has said, one might never wield a sword yet die on the same. Each day progress creates new solutions along with new problems.

The intellect is naturally curious and wants to not just explore, but create; there are many scientists undoubtedly who if they could, woulld give a finger or too if they could realistically participate, in trying to create a person, or even an animal from 'scratch' or as close to that as possible. Just out of the love of the 'science' of it.

Surely. There's something inside us (some may say it's that we're trying to do what the father-god did/does) that pushes us to take the next step, climb the higher peak, seek out the unknown etc. Just like Aule, who meant no disrespect nor desired to destroy but just wanted to do as Eru did. I think that it's in our genes, a survival mechanism that allows us to try different things, not knowing what will allow for a better chance of survival. We inhabit all environs of the planet - except for the sea - and one day may even leave Earth.

All because of science.

Yet what of the implications and aftereffects? Planet of the Apes is becoming less far fetched each day - I just heard about experiments that are injecting primate brains w/ human brain cells... What could be potentially more Morgothian? Sauronian actually as he was reputed to be Morgoth's genetic engineer.

"injecting primate brains w/ human brain cells" = directors who feel the need to add dwarf drinking scene (sorry, but I couldn't resist ).

Anyway. I also know that our man-made mutations are bit less resilient than those produced by the whims of nature, and so I'm not really concerned. As you state, we may create PotA apes, yet I'd still be more afraid of the yoyo's in charge. And if another species overtakes us, then so be it, though it would be a bit ironic if we helped them get there. Like Saruon, we may hand our 'enemies' the key to our downfall.

big rant, sorry. But I think this sort of madness is exactly what fueled JRRT to write about a mythical past w/ such a sense of relevance.

One cannot hide; you either run or are run down. Sorry.

A point on GMO's in relation to this thread: I am reminded of Gandalf's statement to Saruman, to break a thing to understand it is folly. W/ GMO"s are we not breaking and replacing according to our 'wisdom' what creation [ I would say God] has made, and are we really doing it w/ full understanding of the ramifications?

How does one understand the full ramifications of a thing if one does not test the same? You can hypothesize all day, yet the true test has to be done eventually. Saruman not only broke what he tried to understand, demonstrating no subtlety nor caring, but also his ends were all about domination and control. If he would have examined the orcs with Gandalf's heart, maybe he would have tried to find a way to 'cure' them of their orcdom. Prometheus gave us fire, and we can either cook food, heat our domiciles or make a flamethrower. And in regards to God/Eru, if we are given the ability to do a thing, how do we know that we were not given a gift of knowledge for our benefit? Surely this is where wisdom comes in to play.

In places where GMO crops are palnted the pollen is spread, and it more or less permanently enters the food chain. Seems like a very dangerous experiment until MUCH more is known. Many strains of native mexican corn are lost forever due to GMO pollen contamination,

But at what cost? Personally I would rather feed people with GMO food than that in which pesticides were used.

In short technology and scientific research that is not balanced w/ equal measures of wisdom and intuitive insight into our spritual purpose as humans leads to evil.

Much agreed, yet to me the problem is not the technology or research, as these are mere tools, but it's the hands that hold the same, and those hands are human and sometimes dirty.

I also cite the Law of the Minimum.