[Kalimac]

Incredible thread; thank you for bringing it up again, Birdland! (Adding my voice to the chorus of thanks).

The idea that Tolkien "translated" most of the artifacts is a neat one, it just leaves me wishing he'd dropped a few more hints about the "originals" in his appendices.

The only one I can't remember seeing mentioned is Bilbo's pocket-handkerchief which he's so worried about throughout "The Hobbit". I can't imagine that those go back terribly far, and especially interesting is that when he returns to the Shire, he has "borrowed one [a handkerchief] of Elrond" which implies that Elves used them too (though it's sort of hard to imagine an Elf wiping sweat off of his brow, or blowing his nose).

For some of the previous mentions: Spectacles I believe came in around the 13th century, in a very crude form (mostly for magnifying things). Not sure what those would have been a translation for, unless they carried tiny magnifying glasses.

Tobacco - in this case I suspect the original was simply pipeweed, which is the only term used in LOTR. Pipeweed was around, and smoked, in England in the Anglo-Saxon era and very likely before; this practice may have survived directly from the Third Age [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. When tobacco came in, people found it pleasanter to smoke, and so they switched.

Similarly chess is a very old game which was around in the very early centuries BC (at least the first mention of it is then) albeit in Arab countries; the Easterlings may have been more likely chess-players, but hey, Wizards know about these things (though how Gandalf explained chess to Pippin all in a moment is fairly mystifying). Or else the "original" game may have been Go, a black-and-white piece board game which is very complex itself and has certifiably been around for thousands of years; it's been called the oldest game in the world.

And a couple of other things - what about Bilbo's "singing" teakettle and those infamous silver spoons? Silver spoons I can believe have been around a long time, but these sound like parts of a place setting - something you'd get for a wedding present, maybe - and that's a fairly modern incarnation. Does anyone know how long the teakettle has been around?

One more thing - I'm *fairly* sure there's a reference to someone wearing velvet somewhere in LOTR - I can't think of a specific passage, so this is just a possibility. Velvet was not invented or worn until the 14th century, so if the reference is in there, I'd hypothesize that velvet was a substitute for some sort of wonderful Elvish fabric which is now, alas, lost to us.

Just my $0.02. Does anyone else have thoughts? I'm really curious about that teakettle now.

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]