[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I've found this thread very interesting, alatar, because it considers how we go about interpreting movies and books, even if you do suppose that hoary age interferes with what we think!

Not with how we think (though there is that) but how we perceive. My take on this issue would be different if I would have viewed the films as a young man - assisting in the birth of my three children obviously has changed my perspective on relationships etc. And I started the thread with a note stating that I didn't want this to be a post-pubescent "Arwen is SO hot!' thread.

Not that she's not...

The point about Jackson wanting or needing some dramatic tension in TTT is well taken. The movie lags and, I would venture to say, while hoping not to be inundated with rotten tomatoes, that the book does also. (I notice that our Chapter by Chapter reading group certainly has bogged down and lost its former enthusiastic rate of posting.) But this could not be the only reason.

I would disagree. PJ could have left TTT more like the book for me as I knew that Aragorn was already 'spoken for.' And compared to the 'Frodo/Sam Walking to Mordor' chapters, the adventures of the 'Three Hunters Who Lose Their Horses But Gain a White Wizard' weren't that bad. The ents in both cases were a bit of a drag, though.

Now that I have people's hackles raised, let me get back to your main idea, the depiction of the romance of Arwen and Aragorn. As you suggest, this is the high romance of fantasy. It is not particularly well represented in modern fiction, where
faithful, unconsumated love is not high on the agenda these days. Nor, for that matter, is even faithful consumated love. Modern notions of chastity are vague and where they exist, they tend to be more limited than medieval concepts of chastity, which involved more than simply sexual self control or physical virginity. In a culture where even the Church finds pre-marital celebacy a hard sell, what's a poor film maker to do to put forward the idea without drawing ridicule and laughter?

But we already have wizards, Little Folk, Elves, a Burning Eye, a Balrog, etc - why not go completely 'unreal' and throw in some high romance? But you're right, modern audiences can only accept so much fantasy (sigh).

I wonder if Jackson didn't spice things up suggestively in order to make the relationships have a more modern 'feel', just as he souped up Arwen to make her appear less traditional and passive. A matter, as you suggest, of the filmmaker trying to help his audience appreciate something a bit beyond ordinary realism.

In other threads it's been suggested that PJ 'humanized' the main characters somewhat in order to appear to a larger audience and to allow for Aragorn to shine.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I must say that I kind of read some of the scenes between A & A somewhat differently -- given that the expectation of modern audiences is that the lovers will have sex, it's interesting to note how PJ perhaps suggests that they are not as frankly and openly sexual as we might expect. Where are the revealing dresses? At what point do they kiss, embrace and then fall backwards into pillows? They are always fully clothed around one another and NEVER kiss in a private space (i.e. a room with a closed door) but out in the open where all the eyes of Rivendell (or Minas Tirith) are upon them.

Weren't the films rated PG-13 (in USA)? To me this would mean that the 'hit the pillow topless' scene would be excluded a priori. But my original question was that is it common for modern possibly abstinent couples to behave with such familiarity around each other, and was more being suggested (to those viewer slightly older than 13) by PJ? Were A&A in a state of high romance, were they courting, or were they an old couple that just hadn't gone legal?

Being somewhat older and married may be skewing my insight, and so I wondered what others (younger, older, single, married, etc) saw. Was PJ shooting for 'unconsumated lovers' and failed? Or did he intend on showing a less fantastic relationship?

It's almost as though PJ is taking it as a 'given' that they are sexual with one another and then working against that. Their most passionate scenes are upon the bridge when Arwen gives Aragorn the Evenstar (and I can guaranteed you that that moment didn't get beyond a kiss -- can you imagine what Daddy Agent Elrond would think looking out his window and seeing anything more?) and when they kiss each other at the coronation with thousands of people there gazing on. Again, not much more happening than a kiss.

And there's exactly my point. I wouldn't have considered that PJ would have figured that it was 'a given' that they were sexual. Maybe it's me or my generation, but did not think that.

Just occurs to me that the only moment in the films that is somewhat obviously sexual (that is, "these two are going to have sex now") comes at the very end when Sam and Rose go into their hole and shut the door. Yeah, they've got the kids with them, but they're purposely leaving the camera outside and so as soon as the kids are asleep, who's to know what happens?

That's funny, as I never saw that at all. And I assume that children only sleep 'in the movies.'

Thanks all for your thoughts.