View Single Post
Old 01-10-2005, 08:38 PM   #40
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
White Tree

A lot can happen when you are off for the weekend.
HI my friend, I liked your post and I would like to enter into a little more detail regarding the Gorlim situation.

From The Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced
Quote:
There now in anguish Gorlim lay:
with bond on neck, on hand and foot,
to bitter torment he was put,
to break his will and him constrain
to buy with treason end of pain.
But naught to them would he reveal
of Barahir, nor break the seal
of faith that on his tongue was laid;
until at last a pause was made,
and one came softly to his stake,
a darkling form that stooped, and spake
to him of Eilinel his wife.
‘Wouldst thou,’ he said, ‘forsake thy life,
who with few words might win release
for her, and thee, and go in peace,
and dwell together far from war,
friends of the King? What wouldst thou more?’
And Gorlim, now long worn with pain,
yearning to see his wife again
(whom well he weened was also caught
in Sauron’s net), allowed the thought
to grow, and faltered in his troth.
Then straight, half willing and half loath,
they brought him to the seat of stone
where Sauron sat. He stood alone
before that dark and dreadful face,
and Sauron said: ‘Come, mortal base!
What do I hear? That thou wouldst dare
to barter with me? Well, speak fair!
What is thy price?’ And Gorlim low
bowed down his head, and with great woe,
word on slow word, at last implored
that merciless and faithless lord
that he might free depart, and might
gain find Eilinel the White,
and dwell with her, and cease from war
against the King. He craved no more.

Then Sauron smiled, and said: ‘Thou thrall!
The price thou askest is but small
for treachery and shame so great!
I grant it surely! Well, I wait:
Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!’
Then Gorlim wavered, and he drew
half back; but Sauron’s daunting eye
there held him, and he dared not lie:
as he began, so must he wend
from first false step to faithless end:
he all must answer as he could,
betray his lord and brotherhood,
and cease, and fall upon his face.

Then Sauron laughed aloud. ‘Thou base,
thou cringing worm! Stand up,
and hear me! And now drink the cup
that I have sweetly blent for thee!
Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see
that I, I Sauron, made to snare
thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there.
Cold ‘tis with Sauron’s wraiths to wed!
Thy Eilinel! She is long since dead,
dead, food of worms less low than thou.
And yet thy boon I grant thee now:
to Eilinel thou soon shalt go,
and lie in her bed, no more to know
of war - or manhood. Have thy pay!'
I have to agree with your comment HI, but there are a few things that I would like to add. First that Gorlim was tortured and that may make a person reveal something that would not otherwise would.
We know that torture alone was not sufficient for Gorlim so Sauron tricked him into the illusion that if he would betray Barahir and Co. he would have his love back. That he was after that point unable to offer Sauron resistance is I think because of the fear of Sauron being there. Remember that if Sauron did indeed could "see" into his mind, he wouldn't have needed to have Gorlim tell him, he could have retrieved the information himself.
From Ósanw-kenta
Quote:
Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. And this weapon he found in "language". For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru's despite. Their bodies being of Eä are subject to force; and their spirits, being united to their bodies in love and solicitude, are subject to fear on their behalf. And their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body: it is not the sáma nor its sanwe, but it may express the sanwe in its mode and according to its capacity. Upon the body and upon the indweller, therefore, such pressure and such fear may be exerted that the incarnate person may be forced to speak.

Thus by deceit, by lies, by torment of the body and the spirit, by the threat of torment to others well loved, or by the sheer terror of his presence, Melkor ever sought to force the Incarnate that fell into his power, or came within his reach, to speak and to tell him all that he would know. But his own Lie begot an endless progeny of lies.
By this means he has destroyed many, he has caused treacheries untold, and he has gained knowledge of secrets to his great advantage and the undoing of his enemies. But this is not by entering the mind, or by reading it as it is, in its despite. Nay, for great though the knowledge that he gained, behind the words (even of those in fear and torment) dwells ever the sáma inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed from it (as cries from behind a locked door); they must be judged and assessed for what truth may be in them.
Quote:
It is stated Gift of Eru can not be withdrawn, but we have Nazgûl living on and on. And here, it seems, the explanation is provided for why that should be so. It is another trickery, cheating. Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead in PC games I may an addict of, not letting the body die, but transforming it, so keeping the sould tied up to it. The Gift of Eru is not, technically, withdrawn - just the object has not died yet. Its a bit like of what effect may be of freezing one's body for infinite time in a fridge (I've heard some rich people practice the process - with the hope of being returned to life in some better future), but retaining operational functions (i.e. ability to move and be conscious) at the same time. The death is postponed, not cancelled.
You have nailed it my friend.

Quote:
57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.
Probably in his 57 years in Númenórë he used the same hröa, so it could have an effect because he had already diverted some of his power in the Ring.
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline   Reply With Quote