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Old 12-11-2004, 09:07 AM   #9
Findegil
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RD-EX-05 "late in this year" -> " " or "late in the year"
I did the change the way it was marked following the plot synopsis to the Narn given in WH were Húrin reached Nargothrond in 502. But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.

RD-EX-06 addition of "some of"
Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says. But see further down.

RD-EX-08 "Galweg" -> "Guilin" or "Orodreth"
My vault, sorry I thought he was the father of Flinding and never checked it. My apologise to Maédhros how had it right from the start.

RD-EX-09 & RD-EX-10
Quote:
Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.
We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion. In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn following The Later Quenta Silmarillion chapter 10: The Siege of Angband; note to §101.

RD-EX-11
Quote:
But {the folk of Mîm were few, and} the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.
Agreed, but ...
RD-SL-03:
Quote:
I still go back and forth, to be honest (and this is a storyline issue), on whether GA represents a reversion to the story that Hurin killed Mim. But it's a minor point, and one that could easily be changed if we change our minds.
I am also unsure about that. While searching for my reason for change RD-EX-05 discussed above I found the following WH plot synopsis for the Narn:
Quote:
502.
Tuor weds Idril daughter of Turgon.
Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf.
He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Hurin is admitted in pity.
Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

RD-EX-17 Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words. Leading to:
Quote:
§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 And Húrin{and he} reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really. We could take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name but I found it more fitting to change to "fame". If we take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name we should capitalise it here and anywhere else.

§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.

While searching back what I did and why (the first part where Maédhros and I agreed nearly were not change much from our earlier drafts, and thus some time has been elapsed since I proposed these changes) I found one further passage that we might consider for addition: WH the last end of the Grey Annals:
Quote:
Here the text stops abruptly; but on the same page and clearly at the same time my father wrote the following:

Hurin goes to seek Gondolin. Fails. Passes by Brethil, and his anguish is increased. They will not admit him - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin. But A [?new] Lord gives the dragon-helm to Hurin. His heart is hot against Thingol. He passes it [Doriath] by and goes on to Nargothrond. Why? To seek news, plunder, - he had been an admirer of Felagund.
News of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed Maeðros, but did not all displease Celeg[orn] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But the Dwarves of [sic] How did Mim find it? He must come of a different race.
I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news. I would add them thus:
Quote:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.5 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed {Maeðros}[Maedhros], but did not all displease {Celeg[orn]}[Celegorm] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But> after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells.
All suggestions of Aiwendil I did not comment on I agree with and if Maédhros (or any body else) does not gainsay it, I will change them in the next version of test accordingly.

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 12-11-2004 at 09:22 AM.
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