[Bêthberry]

posted by SpM
Early English society, Bêthberry old bean?

I must apologise, Sauce, for my whisper dry humour.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I mentioned this info in an old, old post, and dug it up to repost here:

I came across this interesting bit [while reading Joseph Campbell] about an ogre figure in South African mythology called the Hai-uri (very close to Uruk-hai, inverted, eh?). ?This monster is a hunter of men, whom it tears to shreds with cruel teeth as long as fingers. The creature is said to hunt in packs.? Compare with, ?We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat.?

Yes indeed, Mr. Underhill, I know that passage from Campbell. I have always thought it a great pity that the Letters we have are incomplete, for there is no mention, that I recall or that a quick review can find, of either South African myths or Gilgamesh in any of the discussions of the orcs. I am half-tempted to write to Christopher Tolkien or to John Carpenter to inquire.

I would find it incredible if Tolkien was not familiar with Gilgamesh even if he did not like it or was uninterested in its particular world vision of creation myths. (Which personal taste he is of course allowed.) After all, it contains a Flood narrative that is probably one of the literary precursors for the Noah story and we know the significance of flood narratives for Tolkien. The clay tablets and the deciphering of the cuneiform alphabet were an English find, part of the great hoard of the British Museum's artefacts. The deciphering led to greater knowledge of ancient languages. More specifically, the final quest of Gilgamesh is a quest for an elixir of immortality, in order to escape the doom of death which took his dearest and greatest friend. And besides the name "Uruk", here are some of the gods of Gilgamesh: Anu, the sky god and father of the gods; Ea, who Stephen Mitchell (the latest translator of the text) calls "The cleverest of the gods, god of intellect, creation, wisdom, magic, and medicine"; and Lugalbanda, said to be either the father of Gilgamesh or the guardian deity of Uruk.

Are these names coincidental? Who knows for sure? Still, I think that even if Tolkien took "Uruk-hai" from the South African tale, it suggests a certain degree of insensitivity to the Uruk of the Gilgamesh quest (if he knew it).

posted by davem:
Perhaps if we can answer that we can make a stab at the 'Orcish question'. Elves & Men are aspects of the 'Human' as Tolkien said - & we can accept that easily enough, but if Orcs aren't simply the 'bad guys', the necessary 'two dimensional' enemy for his heroes to slaughter without worrying about the morality of the act (as they certainly deserved what they got), but are also an aspect of the 'human' for Tolkien what does that tell us about him?

This question really pits our different approaches I think, for davem's perspective is to search always for the Author's mind. Mine is to consider textual and cultural issues. For instance, I would not say that Tolkien was consciously and deliberately placing the precursors of Moorish culture in a 'bad light'. But I would consider the effect of his working within a cultural system of values which made it easier to ascribe evilness to an eastern empire. And I suspect Tolkien's constant reworking and re-explaining of the nature of orcs represents his own, maybe even unconscious, unease with this cultural factor.