[HerenIstarion]

And, as I understand it, this is the Christian position, in that Christianity teaches that we cannot achieve salvation through our own acts.

So and not so. True and not entirely true. The argument, sorry davem, is lopsided. If it were entirely true (i.e. logic as follows - our acts can not bring our salvation = no need to act), there would be no point for Frodo to go anywhere at all, all acts being useless unless salvation came from outside (or inside - i.e. externally strenghtening his inner self, or will).

I'll risk to tell you a joke to illustrate (even if clumsily) what I mean:

There was a man drowning, and he prayed to God to help him, and having trust in Him, he laid back and stopped making attempts to swim. Naturally, he drowned. When in Paradise, he asked his Lord - why haven't you saved me when I humbly prayed for deliverance? Because I've already given you means to it by giving you hands and legs to swim, wich you could have used to swim ashore - was the answer

in LoTR, Frodo is the illustration of both necessities - i.e. acts do count, for not to act would be deriliction of duty, but acts as acts, without external (external and at the same time, internal, rather) help, will bring no salvation - hence Gollum falling down by Chance.

In a sense, and in a way, Frodo's story is illustration of Lord's Prayer, specially 'lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil' part.

In that sense, PJ version errs as it depicts mainly acts. But utterly symbolical movie, stressing on inner battle, on Frodo giving in to temptation or, on the contrary, winning out by trust and submission to external force working from the inside, which is not clearly seen at all, but only hinted at in the book, as Duty, would be equally erroneous.

Is Boethian and Manichaean opposition solvable, than? Despite the number of disputes we have had or will have about the issue, we haven't reached final conclusion. It may be said that truth lies, if not entirely in the exact middle, at least nearer to Boethian side of the swing, but not utterly there. It would follow, than, that absolute evil is impossible - i.e. when its very existence derived from Good, to exist, it must retain some good at least.

But I'm drifting off.

Originally Posted by davem

choice made by a free being

A-ha!

Originally Posted by davem

He could - but his his feelings of guilt would not be valid. They would be false, & so invalidate his need to go into exile

Um, difficult issue, this. He in fact, goes to 'get better' - to be healed. Towards the end, Frodo seems like more than mere human - having failed at Sammath Naur, and being there delivered by Miracle, he seems to cease to fail at all - he seems redeemed. So, he must be free from supposed 'feeling of guilt'. His repentance is over as the Ring is forcibly taken from him. The rest of his life would be joy, unless he were not maimed (both bodily and spiritually). You seem to make it sound as if guild here = shame. Frodo has nothing to be ashamed for in that respect. He does not feel guilt - he's in pain (it's gone, Sam, it's gone.. etc)

EDIT

While I tinkered, Essex and Boromir88 cross-poster under my very nose

Well, should accommodate your posts too

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The way I view this is Frodo didnt FAIL the quest, he FAILED the personal test

In a sense. Indeed, I myself has written immediately above that he have failed. But, come to think of it, he failed (in a sense) neither. It could not have been otherwise - work 'deliberately' Christian 'in the revision' could not have allowed for Frodo to drop the Ring down in a nonchalant way - when even Perfect Human crucified cried out "my God, why have you forsaken me' - i.e.even being the best of humans allows for moments of waivering. Frodo failed the quest, but did not fail it at the same time, in a sense it was impossible not to fail it. What he did not fail was his obligation. He carried his duty to its end, and than the game was took over by the higher Authority. Thence there should have been no guilt after the event (whatever amount of it could have been felt by him prior to it) - Frodo did all he could do (really all, not what his fancy told him was "all he could"), Logically, he should have died than - for his life is accomplished at that moment. Only book would have lost without kind of rehearsal of the Joy we read in the Cormallen Fields (I use to sob over the chapter)

And, as we are in the movies forum, let me add a movie flavour to it - that what PJ version utterly failed to transfer.

Originally Posted by Essex

West / Undying Lands / Paradise / Nirvana / Valhalla / Heaven - whatever you want to call it. He is going to a BETTER PLACE.

In a sense, yes. And again, moments ago, I myself wrote something similar, but not entirely similar. Frodo goes to the place of Repose, not final place of Abide. (Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth - humans being guests, technically are exiles everywhere but at their Final Home - Arda Remade, in the reality plane of ME)

END OF EDIT