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Old 11-19-2004, 01:19 AM   #8
HerenIstarion
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With the risk of repeating what’s already been said, but with the hope I can stress on some points not sufficiently discussed yet, I’m forced to comment on some of Fordim’s statements, mainly. Order of their appearence deliberately altered. So:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
The basic definition of a tragic hero (get ready to write this down for future reference) is someone whose greatness is his own downfall
Verily true. But that definition applies to all living human beings as well. The general rule being, the more great is one the futher s/he will fall, and more prone to falling. It is easy to stroll the plains, and fall will bring no more than some bruises, but try to climb the pinnacle – you’ve get more satisfaction in case you succed, but you get more hurt if you fall. Is Melkor a tragic hero or a sample of what may befall anyone (anyone with a free will, that is?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
Like all tragic heroes, Boromir is neither good nor bad
Now that’s not true. Hamlet, being a Christian should have seen that, as both actions were sinful, he must have taken neither, Oedipus, as a member of society which valued bravery and wisdom, should have seen that suicide is neither brave nor wise.

But let them other literary characters be at peace and let’s turn back to Boromir. To argue his character and his flaws, one should admitt that Good is a base, the Fact, and Evil a by-product – i.e. assume Boethian point of view of Good and Evil. Further still, one has to admitt that, though groundless, or being a twisted Good, Evil can be present as active force, and is indeed so in the plane of reality LoTR presents us with – i.e. originally Good Sauron as persnification of Evil (in Mordor where the shadows are). But being an active force, Evil has to employ remnants of Good it still retains – i.e. to win battles, evil soldiers should be reckless (form of courage, which is a virtue), and their captains cunning (form of wisdom/reason which is virtue)

Having those provisos in mind, I’d argue that Boromir is good, but not good enough. What he wishes, and Ring tempts him to use its Power in achieving, is Good – indeed, what is bad in Saving Gondor, Helping His Father and Having Peace and Prosperity for the People? But there is a flaw in his aims and wishes at the outset – he wishes this good not as good per se, but as good brought about by Boromir himself. The victory of Gondor is to be lead by him, Gondorian arms should win glory, but with him as a general, there should be peace, but with his help. That is a chink Ring works through to seize him. “I want to have power to save Gondor” is his maxim, not “I want Gondor saved even if I take no part in it, even if I’m labelled coward for not taking a part in it, even if I die in exile and all who remember me are ashamed of mentioning my name”. Indeed, two parts of his resolution are almost equal – he wants to save Gondor and to have personal glory. If the latter of the two maxims (I want to save Gondor even...) would have been his imperative, the Ring would not have been able to tempt him in that direction. For than “I wan’t to save Gondor from the Dark Lord, regardless the risk of having start-up Dark Lord replace him at the very heart of Gondor’” would terrify him as bringing ruing of Gondor in the long run – as he was told that claiming the Ring to oneself would end in another Dark Lord arising.

Don’t misunderstand me. Nobody in ME is good enough in that respect – nor even Gandalf. All who started wishing good for others, through ring would wish only their own good for others, and here quote from Henry Thoreau (by davem in post #35) comes into play. (Chap coming to do us good, run for it, gents!) Indeed it is stated, not in this chapter but elswhere, that Sauron intended good for ME in the beginning – to have order and peace. But values, good with a proviso, tend to become simply bad with the time, and Boromir’s “I want to have power to save Gondor” would become mere “I want to have power” with no “save Gondor” to give it at least a slight flavour of ‘good end’ on the finish line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
and there's nothing he can do to change that
That’s not true either (unless you mean he can't do it all by himself) – he can and he does a lot to change that – he repents. Not in this chapter, again, but in the following – at his death-bed (well, not bed, exactly) – he acknowledges that Gondor needs merely (in the older sense of the word, i.e. ‘absolute’) good, not good sophisticated by allowances for certain persons to do it, not others, so not necessarily by him, by Boromir, but whoever brings it, he humbles himself to wish this good without provisos and he is saved – the thing which his ‘wiser’ father, Denethor, fails to do (again, further still in the order of chapters)
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Last edited by HerenIstarion; 11-19-2004 at 01:29 AM. Reason: typos
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