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davem · 11-12-2004, 02:37 PM

It is strange that Tolkien would use the same verse forms for the two cultures. Clearly the Elvish culture was developed first - probably because they were originally his ideal race, & alliterative verse was an especial love of his. Of course, when the Rohirric culture appeared he wanted to create an idealised 'anglo-saxon' people for M-e, so they would have to use alliterative verse, as the real anglo-saxons used that verse form.

I suppose what we have is, first, a race of beings based on the norse Alfar, so their 'culture' would reflect what was known of norse/a-s society (in an idealised form). Were they intended as the inspiration for a-s society, for its culture as well as its legends?

I'm fumbling here, but it seems almost as if we could see the Elves as the 'archetypal' anglo-saxons, the spiritual template for the a-s culture - the Valar were the archetypes from which the norse gods of legends took their forms & nature,Elvish verse forms the archetypes from which later Rohirric alliterative verse forms evolved.

Then Rohan appears as that ideal made flesh. The Numenorian culture moves towards the classical, away from that ideal (for all its 'height'). We can see in the situation in Rohan, as a representation of a-s england during the dark ages. The Elves in the Golden Wood are symbolic of the pagan world which is being left behind, Gondor symbolises the world of Christianity coming in, but the links with the past remain, in legends, tales, & in the poetry of the Elves which has passed to the Rohirrim from the Elves.

Geographically, Gondor is in the place of Rome, Rohan of a-s England. I suppose we can think of the Rohirrim as having a link with the Sindar, the Gondorians, through Numenor, with the High Elves of the West. Minlamad thent/estent is sindarin, (I think) & if the name of the verse form is sindarin, does that mean the verse form itself was Sindarin originally? I suppose we could be dealing with a passing on of a sindarin verse form from the Elves that never passed into the West to men who never went into the West (ie to Numenor). I don't know how much thought Tolken put into what happened in M-e during the Second Age, in terms of the relations between the Sindar, Men & Dwarves, but its possible that there was a great deal of cultural interaction - particularly between Men who remained in Middle earth & the Sindar. How 'advanced' a culture was there?

Too much speculation here, & probably a lot of it is wrong - sorry, can't face wading through all the books at the moment, but if I'm anywhere close to being right it may be that the Sindar passed on large parts of their culture to Men, & that the peoples who eventuallly settled in Rohan were more culturally Elvish than we might think.

11-12-2004, 02:37 PM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	It is strange that Tolkien would use the same verse forms for the two cultures. Clearly the Elvish culture was developed first - probably because they were originally his ideal race, & alliterative verse was an especial love of his. Of course, when the Rohirric culture appeared he wanted to create an idealised 'anglo-saxon' people for M-e, so they would have to use alliterative verse, as the real anglo-saxons used that verse form. I suppose what we have is, first, a race of beings based on the norse Alfar, so their 'culture' would reflect what was known of norse/a-s society (in an idealised form). Were they intended as the inspiration for a-s society, for its culture as well as its legends? I'm fumbling here, but it seems almost as if we could see the Elves as the 'archetypal' anglo-saxons, the spiritual template for the a-s culture - the Valar were the archetypes from which the norse gods of legends took their forms & nature,Elvish verse forms the archetypes from which later Rohirric alliterative verse forms evolved. Then Rohan appears as that ideal made flesh. The Numenorian culture moves towards the classical, away from that ideal (for all its 'height'). We can see in the situation in Rohan, as a representation of a-s england during the dark ages. The Elves in the Golden Wood are symbolic of the pagan world which is being left behind, Gondor symbolises the world of Christianity coming in, but the links with the past remain, in legends, tales, & in the poetry of the Elves which has passed to the Rohirrim from the Elves. Geographically, Gondor is in the place of Rome, Rohan of a-s England. I suppose we can think of the Rohirrim as having a link with the Sindar, the Gondorians, through Numenor, with the High Elves of the West. Minlamad thent/estent is sindarin, (I think) & if the name of the verse form is sindarin, does that mean the verse form itself was Sindarin originally? I suppose we could be dealing with a passing on of a sindarin verse form from the Elves that never passed into the West to men who never went into the West (ie to Numenor). I don't know how much thought Tolken put into what happened in M-e during the Second Age, in terms of the relations between the Sindar, Men & Dwarves, but its possible that there was a great deal of cultural interaction - particularly between Men who remained in Middle earth & the Sindar. How 'advanced' a culture was there? Too much speculation here, & probably a lot of it is wrong - sorry, can't face wading through all the books at the moment, but if I'm anywhere close to being right it may be that the Sindar passed on large parts of their culture to Men, & that the peoples who eventuallly settled in Rohan were more culturally Elvish than we might think. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."