[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In the end I think if it came down to the Ring (which he was always able to suppress until that ONE confrontation) or Minas Tirith, it would be Minas Tirith, since his madness was only temporary.

Well, we will have to disagree on this. To my mind, the pull of the Ring is by now stronger for Boromir than the pull of Minas Tirith. The madness which provokes him to seek to take the Ring from Frodo by force may only have been temporary, but, to my mind, the desire which gives rise to it is not. I do like to think that once the madness has passed, Boromir does truly repent and is free of the Ring's lure, but this is perhaps left until we reach the relevant Chapter.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

SpM, that scene with Galadriel passing round the cup is taken straight from any number of Anglo-Saxon poems. In the A-S world, the woman of the hall would be the "cupbearer" who took the flagon to each man. It was an important, and specifically feminine role.

Ah, I suspected that it would be something like that, and it ties in with the cup/water being symbols of femininity, intuition, empathy and dream-state. Galadriel also bears Nenya, the Ring of Water. And her gift to Frodo contained water from her fountain (as, indeed, did her Mirror).

Originally Posted by Fordim

Merry and Pippin are somewhat left out of this, I realise, but I still think it significant that they are given the same sorts of gifts as is Boromir -- and again they seem to have something to do with their endings: Boromir ends his journey in battle to proect the Halfings, Merry and Pippin will go on, after the quest, to defend the Shire in battle, and to become the closest things that the Shire has to military leaders.

Good point. There is definately a link being established between Boromir and the two young Hobbits, although it is done with great subtlety (unlike in the film where it was, I think, necessary to establish this link more obviously). I also noticed that Merry and Pippin travel in the same boat as Boromir.

Originally Posted by Fordim

Celeborn, the powerful Elf lord of this world, is committed to the practicalities of this world, while Galadriel, the last of the Noldor and thus of the 'other world' is all about that -- she is about what comes after or at the end, he is all about the present. Both are necessary for the success of the Quest, but in the end, we are more 'enchanted' by Galadriel and the endings/fadings that she represents than we are by the present task. This is interesting, for Tolkien is able to drag us into a very Elvish state -- by valuing Galadriel and her gifts over Celeborn's we, in effect, think like Elves insofar as we value the gifts that are -- all of them -- relics from the past that are meant to be preserved into the future.

I think that this is a very astute observation, Fordim. And I think that there is a similar comparison to be made between Celeborn's link to the practical and physical world and Galadriel's association with more spiritual and emotional matters. As you say, Celeborn provides practical gifts for the physical journey, whereas Galadriel is more concerned with the Fellowship's spiritual state (for example when she tests their faith in the Quest) and her gifts are more concerned with their emotional needs (love, friendship, comfort and relief from fear etc). This links in with the cup/water symbolism, which emphasises her role as an empathetic/intuitive power. As I touched on in my previous posts, it is significant that the scabbard is said to be from her and Celeborn jointly, whereas the other gift to Aragorn is personal to her, as are the gifts to Frodo, Sam and Gimli.

I think that this line of thought comes closest to resolving my reservations over Celeborn's role. He is a powerful figure, but his power lies in his practical role as Lord of the realm. This power is not as relevant to the Quest (although it is important in this Chapter), and so it is downplayed in comparison with Galadriel's intuitive power, which impacts directly on the Quest. Thus Celeborn's power (in the previous Chapter at least) seems inferior to hers.