The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Science AND Faith in Middle-earth

Fordim Hedgethistle · 11-03-2004, 07:56 AM

Some very interesting responses so far. All I have to add at the moment is a thought that the discussion to this point has brought to me. I tend to think of things in terms of experiential reason: that is, I place my faith in the physical explainable (if not yet explained) phenomena of this world.

Tolkien went to great lengths to created M-e as an earlier 'version' of our own world -- so for that to to work, then the physical laws that govern our existence must also operate in M-e: this is why, I think, Tolkien works very hard to undo the 'unknowable mystery' of magic and the magical. It's a simple syllogism:

1) there is no magic in our world
2) M-E is our world

therefore

3) there is no magic in M-E

What there is instead is providence/miracles/Eru -- again, we have these in our world (according to Tolkien and like minded people), so the continuity is the same.

I think what we have with Tolkien's world is something like this: magic and science are not compatible -- either phenomena are explainable by reason or they are not; science and faith are compatible insofar as the things of this world (Rings of Power, Mirrors of Galadriel, Elven eyes) are explainable by reason (if not understandable to everyone), but there are things not of this world that we must take on faith alone (Eru, Providence, etc).

To return to my first point: I take my starting point of all knowledge to be the phenomena of this world, and place my faith in their explainability (call me a cock-eyed phenomenologist, but there you go). For someone like me, then, to "write off" the Mirror or Balrogs or Gandalf's "word of Command" as magic is to set an insupperable barrier between myself and Middle-earth. Again, another syllogism:

1) there is no magic in our world
2) there is magic in Middle-earth

therefore

3) Middle-earth is not our world.

This is why I have to see the events and characters of M-e as working within a scientific (that is, explainable/rational) framework. The irony for a person such as myself is that as soon as I see magic in Middle-earth, the 'magic' of the narrative disappears. The miraculous, sure, I can live with miracles (Gollum's fall at the Crack of Doom; the coming of the Eagles), but no magic please. . .

11-03-2004, 07:56 AM	#11
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Some very interesting responses so far. All I have to add at the moment is a thought that the discussion to this point has brought to me. I tend to think of things in terms of experiential reason: that is, I place my faith in the physical explainable (if not yet explained) phenomena of this world. Tolkien went to great lengths to created M-e as an earlier 'version' of our own world -- so for that to to work, then the physical laws that govern our existence must also operate in M-e: this is why, I think, Tolkien works very hard to undo the 'unknowable mystery' of magic and the magical. It's a simple syllogism: 1) there is no magic in our world 2) M-E is our world therefore 3) there is no magic in M-E What there is instead is providence/miracles/Eru -- again, we have these in our world (according to Tolkien and like minded people), so the continuity is the same. I think what we have with Tolkien's world is something like this: magic and science are not compatible -- either phenomena are explainable by reason or they are not; science and faith are compatible insofar as the things of this world (Rings of Power, Mirrors of Galadriel, Elven eyes) are explainable by reason (if not understandable to everyone), but there are things not of this world that we must take on faith alone (Eru, Providence, etc). To return to my first point: I take my starting point of all knowledge to be the phenomena of this world, and place my faith in their explainability (call me a cock-eyed phenomenologist, but there you go). For someone like me, then, to "write off" the Mirror or Balrogs or Gandalf's "word of Command" as magic is to set an insupperable barrier between myself and Middle-earth. Again, another syllogism: 1) there is no magic in our world 2) there is magic in Middle-earth therefore 3) Middle-earth is not our world. This is why I have to see the events and characters of M-e as working within a scientific (that is, explainable/rational) framework. The irony for a person such as myself is that as soon as I see magic in Middle-earth, the 'magic' of the narrative disappears. The miraculous, sure, I can live with miracles (Gollum's fall at the Crack of Doom; the coming of the Eagles), but no magic please. . . __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.