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Old 10-28-2004, 07:58 PM   #66
The Saucepan Man
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Silmaril Valinorean heirarchy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!
From the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales:


Quote:
Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinorean structure than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order.
It would, I suppose, have been difficult for Galadriel to challenge Saruman's status within Valinorean heirarchy.

It is notable, however, that Saruman (Curumo) volunteered for the task, whereas Manwe specifically named Gandalf (Olorin) and appears to have commanded that he should go:


Quote:
But only two came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin [Christopher Tolkien's note: illegible words follow that seem to contain the wrod "third"]. But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third"; and Curumo remembered it.
The final sentence is interesting. It seems that Varda, like Galadriel, considered that Saruman should not outrank Gandalf, whatever the heirarchy within Valinor. Had Galadriel known the precise circumstances of the appointment of the Istari, perhaps she could have relied on these to support a challenge to Saruman's leadership of the White Council.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
I was also curious whether mention was ever made of Celeborn’s having been included.
Of course he would have been included. He was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth!
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