[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

The realm of Lothlorien is constructed upwards, out of the ground by making use of the trees and building within them; the elves use flets and live up high in the treetops as the ground is not a safe place to be. In Moria, the realm is built downwards, into the very roots of the earth. While the Elves are made safer by going upwards, towards the heavens as it were, the Dwarves are endangered by delving too deeply.

This is interesting - especially in that traditionally Elves do not live up trees, they also live under the earth, in the Hollow Hills. The traditional Elven dwelling is of the kind we find in Doriath, Nargothrond, & Mirkwood. But often entering the earth through a tunnel or passageway leads the traveller into another world, with stars, moon & sun shining within the earth. What we have in Moria is almost a descent into hell, ending with a confrontation with a demon. Adtually, living in trees seems quite an odd lifestyle - very 'Boy's Own', in fact - which of us didn't enjoy climbing trees, & who (if they didn't have one) wouldn't have loved a treehouse?

Symbolically, though, it does seem significant that danger is within the earth, & that 'salvation' is to be found in being as far away from the earth as possible.

Mirrormere is, as you say, different from Galadriel's Mirror, in its function & in what it symbolises. Mirrormere is 'passive' - it doesn't so much 'reveal' as merely reflect, & it reflects 'eternity' - days may pass, sun & moon may cross the sky, people may pass by & look into its depths, but it doesn't reflect any of that, it reflects only the depths of space, the mountains & the stars of Durin's crown. What that says about the psyche of the Dwarves, I'm not sure. Perhaps their choice of working in stone & metal is part of it, the desire to create 'permanence' (who knows, maybe in their secret hearts they desire to become things of stone, permanent, unchanging - physically 'eternal'. Elves focus on temporary things - trees, cloth, books, language. The mortal race seeks permanence, while the immortal race are drawn to the transitory. As Blake said 'Eternity is in love with the productions of Time' which would seem to sum up the Elves, & the corollary, that the 'productions of Time are in love with Eternity' perhaps sums up the attitude of mortals.

Originally Posted by Helen

. In this tale of two lovers (known and retold in three major elf-settlements) that sets the flet-lifestyle for all the elves of Lorien, and represents 'the heart of elvendom on earth'-- the stream never met the sea; that desire is unfulfilled in Middle-Earth.

Water is the significant element - it divides, & unites (there are watercourses to cross - many of them dangerous, but the two sides are linked by the water), it reveals (Galadriel's Mirror)& conceals (Mirrormere), it bars & allows access (ultimately the Sundering Sea itself).

As to Bethberry's & Fordim's points regarding the difference between Aragorn & Boromir, I must agree, up to a point. Yet, Aragorn, knowing his destiny, & his obligations, both to the Company & to his people, is undeniably reckless, & even if Boromir does not know the nature of the Balrog, he does display a selfless courage in the act of running to Gandalf's aid - no less than Eowyn displays in her defence of Theoden - & she has no more knowledge of what the Witch King is than Boromir does of the Balrog.

I was reading an extract today from anew book about the end of WW2, specifically describing the last defence put up by the Hitler Youth. Its reckoned that they were far more dangerous than the adult soldiers, & would often surrender & then throw concealed grenades at their 'captors', & they would fight on longer than the adult soldiers, & have far less sense of personal safety. Basically, they, at 12, 13, 14 years old had not developed adult sensitivities, like compassion, respect for life, retaining still that 'childlike' visciousness which can be seen in schoolyards across the world.

Now, I don't want to compare Boromir to a Hitler Youth, but I always feel there is that kind of childlike 'certainty' of being absolutely right, of being willing to fight to the end, & use any means to hand to win, no matter who suffers. Boromir to me is a man who has never really grown up. He sulks, expects to be the centre of attention, knows he's RIGHT, & can't believe everyone else is so stupid that they can't see it. He looks for glory in battle & probably never quite believs he could die, or that anything really bad could ever happen to him. It makes him a great warrior, but not the kind of person you really want around when things are peaceful - because if he is around things won't stay peaceful for very long. He certainly is admired for his prowess, loved by his kin & respected by his men, but he's simply not 'loveable' in himself. Lord Melkor is right up to a point:

Aragorn and Legolas too consider him to be a noble man (as evidenced by their eulogy in the Two Towers). In fact, Boromir is universally admired and respected by all who know him.

But, as Shippey (I think) has pointed out, the 'eulogy' of Aragorn & Legolas, doesn't ever say Boromir was a nice guy - He is 'fair', 'tall', 'bold', he 'fought many foes'. He will be missed by the people of his city - obviously - he is a great Captain, & they are fighting a desperate war. But can we imagine him in a settled, loving relationship, with children, ruling as Steward in a time of peace? No - well, I can't. Of the two, Faramir is the grown up. Boromir is a man who in a sense has been 'lucky' to have been born in wartime. His greatness comes only from the opportunities offered by war.

As to Bethberry's other point:

An interesting question, but one I think that can be answered by considering the nature of bringing evil. For now at least, the Fellowship is in control over that evil rather than being controlled by it. They themselves are not tarnished by the object. Thus, they themselves would have nothing to fear from the realm which opposes the Enemy who is the source of that evil. That is, the Fellowship and the Perilous Realm are in league together against that evil.

I'm not sure, & probably lean toward's SpM's position. The Fellowship do bring 'evil' into Lorien - the most evil (& dangerous) thing in existence (not that you'd know it by the way the rest of the Company act - forgetting Frodo & Sam & wandering off & leaving them on their own - imagine if some orc or warg had ambushed them & taken the Ring! Aragorn: 'OOPS! I knew there was something I was supposed to be doing back there!)

The Ring is taken into the 'heart of Elvendom on earth', & I suppose we can ask what the significance & symbolism of that is - the 'serpent' has entered 'Paradise' & temptation must inevitably follow. 'Middle earth's 'Eve' will be tempted by the power to become as God, but she is also Middle earth's 'Mary' & she will reject what is offered, choose the role of humble 'handmaid', pass into the West, & remain Galadriel.