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Morwen Tindomerel · 03-31-2003, 08:06 PM

Aiwendil:

According to Manwe *everybody* with *any* mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been *mortal* dispite their Elven mother.

I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood.

Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree.

But Enough of this small talk about immortality and the Gift of Men! Let's discuss a really critical issue:

How many generations does it take for Elven descendants to lose their pointed ears? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Assuming pointy ears are a simple dominant gene, as seems likely, simple Mendelian calculation should give us the answer:

o = round ears
v = pointy ears

Beren (oo) + Luthien (vv) = Dior (vo)

Dior (vo) + Nimloth (vv) = Elwing (vo or vv)

Elwing could be either heterozygous like her father with one 'o' gene and one 'v' gene or she could have inherited the 'v' gene from both parents and been homozygous.

Elwing (vo) + Earendil (vo) = Elros and Elrond (vv, vo or oo)

Elros and Elrond would have a three in four chance of being pointy eared, (vv or vo)
and one in four chance of being round eared (oo). However if Elwing is homzygous (vv) the twins have a hundred percent chance of being pointy eared with either a 'vv' or 'vo' genotype.

Elrond (vo) + Celebrian (vv) = Arwen (vv or vo)

All Elrond's children would inevitably have pointy ears, even if he himself did not, as he married an Elf. Assuming he did have them and was 'vo' than his offspring would have of fifty/fifty chance of being homozygous (vv) genotypes.

Arwen (vv/vo) + Aragorn (oo) = Eldarion (vo or oo)

Depending on Arwen's genotype the next King of Arnor and Gondor and his sisters have either a fifty/fifty chance of pointy ears or an hundred percent chance, (with a vo genotype).

Eldarion (vo) + ? (oo) = ? (vo or oo)

So his offspring too would have a fifty-fifty chance of pointy ears....in fact if they're lucky (?) the Telcontars could go on producing pointy eared mortals for several generations before the 'v' gene finally failed to be passed on. As must eventually have happened with the descendants of Tar-Minyatur.

Elros (vv) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo)

or:

Elros (vo) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo or oo)

And so forth down the generations.

Is anybody following this? I'm not sure I am...... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

03-31-2003, 08:06 PM	#47
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	Aiwendil: According to Manwe everybody with any mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been mortal dispite their Elven mother. I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood. Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree. But Enough of this small talk about immortality and the Gift of Men! Let's discuss a really critical issue: How many generations does it take for Elven descendants to lose their pointed ears? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Assuming pointy ears are a simple dominant gene, as seems likely, simple Mendelian calculation should give us the answer: o = round ears v = pointy ears Beren (oo) + Luthien (vv) = Dior (vo) Dior (vo) + Nimloth (vv) = Elwing (vo or vv) Elwing could be either heterozygous like her father with one 'o' gene and one 'v' gene or she could have inherited the 'v' gene from both parents and been homozygous. Elwing (vo) + Earendil (vo) = Elros and Elrond (vv, vo or oo) Elros and Elrond would have a three in four chance of being pointy eared, (vv or vo) and one in four chance of being round eared (oo). However if Elwing is homzygous (vv) the twins have a hundred percent chance of being pointy eared with either a 'vv' or 'vo' genotype. Elrond (vo) + Celebrian (vv) = Arwen (vv or vo) All Elrond's children would inevitably have pointy ears, even if he himself did not, as he married an Elf. Assuming he did have them and was 'vo' than his offspring would have of fifty/fifty chance of being homozygous (vv) genotypes. Arwen (vv/vo) + Aragorn (oo) = Eldarion (vo or oo) Depending on Arwen's genotype the next King of Arnor and Gondor and his sisters have either a fifty/fifty chance of pointy ears or an hundred percent chance, (with a vo genotype). Eldarion (vo) + ? (oo) = ? (vo or oo) So his offspring too would have a fifty-fifty chance of pointy ears....in fact if they're lucky (?) the Telcontars could go on producing pointy eared mortals for several generations before the 'v' gene finally failed to be passed on. As must eventually have happened with the descendants of Tar-Minyatur. Elros (vv) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo) or: Elros (vo) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo or oo) And so forth down the generations. Is anybody following this? I'm not sure I am...... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ] [ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ] [ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]