[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

But if you're talking about homosexual relationships, yes, it should be accepted because the only way to have a peaceful world is through tolerance.

Bravo, Encaitare. Quite true.

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Flame

Or keep those stories on a slash-only site, where the more canonical fans don't have to look at them.

I beg your pardon, but each site, like any publisher, has its own policies about what sort of stories they present.

Do you mean that authors who write slash are somehow managing to violate the policies of individual sites, to trick the unwary into reading them? Or do you mean that sites like the Downs are careless about enforcing their slash policies?

I've yet to tie someone up, pin open their eyes and force them to read a slash story. Nor are you being tricked into discussing slash here. You chose to read these posts and - to a limited extent, skimming the opposing posts - consciously joined the discussion.

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Flame

You make the characters act completely OOC to conform to your little idea or "storyline".

My earlier comments on plausibility apply here. You are free to disagree, and certainly there are many views on other modern myths, for example, Dracula. Because there are varying views, as I stated earlier, Tolkien says that the "validity" of the subject matter is irrelevant in gauging the merit of the work.

That is Tolkien's view on the subject, and more than just being a fan of his, I also agree wholeheartedly. Dismissing slash because it is slash is like dismissing Sappho's poetry because she was a woman, or dismissing Beowulf because he wrote about silly, childish things like "dragons."

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Flame

Considering how swiftly people are ready to absolutely crucify a 'Sue story really makes you wonder why some of these same people turn right around and support slash fics, as they're written with something of the same principle.

Actually, there are some very well-written and engaging Mary Sue stories. In fanfiction, and original fiction, where the author is clearly writing about themselves (and the character is overly perfect). There is also a Mary Sue character in the Lord of the Rings: Faramir. According to Tolkien, Faramir is his own self-insert.

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Flame

The reason people have sexual feelings is to, basically, continue the human race.

You are free to have this point of view. But, that does not make it an absolute truth.

One of the fundamental tenets of debate is that both parties must agree on the source text. So here, this is a Tolkien forum. We all agree that Tolkien's words have merit. Therefore, you must draw upon Tolkien's words to prove your point.

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Flame

My point is this: Tolkien's work is set on a higher intellectual plane than most things.

- And -

Originally Posted by Saphy

Some people, failing to grasp the subtle messages about these higher matters, subconsciously feel the need to add in their own interpretation of events and emotions to simplify the text and bring the work down to their level. Thus come the slash fics.

You seem to have jumped into the argument without reading the prior posts. So, to assist you, I will re-post what you missed:

Originally Posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim

I feel that to keep true to the flavor of Tolkien it's important to have a greater meaning, what Tolkien in his essay "On Fairy Stories" called a 'piercing glimpse' beyond the fabric of story. But we are, fortunately, not restricted to the same themes as Tolkien.

The underlying theme of The Lord of the Rings is endings, death, and what lies beyond it. This theme is largely why the work has such spiritual meaning for many; (though if anyone asserts that the LotR is inherently Christian, I will bean them with the allegory stick - Tolkien's vision of fairy tales is both more general and more profound than any specific religious doctrine. According to Tolkien, indoctrination is the antithesis of the Fairy Story).

Endings, the afterlife and so forth are not the only themes for a fairy tale. Or for a Tolkienesque story.

According to Jung, mythological archetypal themes correspond to natural rites of passage, stages of life. Including the final stage into the next life - whatever that may be - which Tolkien addresses. Other main stages include crossing into adulthood, marriage, coming into one's inheritance or maturity. These are all troubled stages with no pat answers, thus the need for mythological archetypes (forgive me fellow non-Christians) to "work out your own salvation."

The romance contends with the theme of sacrifice and inter-dependence of relationships, and is a very important thread in the world of mythology and fairy tale. While it is appears superficial (like fantasy itself), in fact, the way a relationship subsumes the self is a very difficult and tangled matter. It is a crisis of identity, a negotiation of boundaries, and either taking ones place in the world of family, or acting against that role (such as in Tristan and Isolde, or the elven maiden Luthien). Anyone who believes romance does not belong in Tolkien's world needs to re-read the story of Beren and Luthien, and note what Tolkien has written on his gravestone.

Slash adds, for those who do not have doctrinal problems with it (note I do not say spiritual, as many Christians do accept homosexuality), an added degree of poignancy to this crisis of identity, boundaries, and ones role in society. Not to mention the confusion of ones role in an agrarian and feudalistic society of the majority of Middle Earth, and the complex class distinctions in the Shire. (I particularly am fascinated by the latter.) It takes the same fundamental questions of the romance and looks at them from another angle.

The vast majority of slash readers (and writers) are women, I think largely for the same reasons that little girls play house: relationships seem to be important to women. Men, regardless of their feelings about homosexuality, tend to be... uncomfortable with slash. Most are unable to bypass the visuals of two men together (let alone two hobbits) to even begin to deal with the theme. It doesn't have the same interest or impact. I'll confess that female/female slash makes me equally queasy.

But do not dismiss romance or slash as being automatically pornographic. There's a great deal of depth available in the subject, particularly if you have a perceptive author.

That said, much of fanfiction is really lousy, and slash is no exception. The LotR fanfiction tends to be worse than most because Tolkien's voice is unusually difficult to capture, and few people understand why the story is so powerful.

I believe, therefore, that your point has already been addressed. By a slash-writer, I might add.

Please respect the other participants by reading the entire discussion. These "review" posts become tiresome and long.

-Maril