[davem]

Originally Posted by SpM

Portraying them as simple "beasts" or automatons resolves these problems, but does not sit well with the characterisation of the likes of Shagrat and Gorbag in LotR (nor, indeed the quasi-independent Goblins of The Hobbit).

Indeed. In the later writings, he tries mightily to extricate himself from this dilemna, & ends up with orcs produced from men, elves, Maiar & animals, as 'robots' with no will of their own, driven by the will of Morgoth. But it doesn't work. I suspect that its a problem which he faced in his own psychological lfe - he was a committed Catholic, yet he loved Pagan myths. He wanted (needed?) to create a mythology, but it had to conform to Catholicism. Catholicism demanded a moral universe, in conformity with the tenets of his faith. Myth required that universe to have its roots in Faerie. This lead him to 'split' Pagan gods in two - Odin cannot be translated into Middle Earth simply by giving him an Elvish name. Odin's 'good' side manifests as Gandalf, his 'dark' (I won't say evil) side as Saruman. The Pagan Great Goddess is split into Galadriel & Shelob, & instead of balance & complementarity you have conflict & antagonism. And the 'good' tends towards perfect GOODNESS, & the bad towards absolute EVIL. This, I feel, is the reason for the 'Manichaeanism', which he struggles with. He doesn't believe in it (its heresy from the Catholic viewpoint), yet it comes across - especially to readers unfamiliar with the rest of the Legendarium - as the way Middle Earth works.

The Pagan worldview is more like the D&D one, yet ultimately there is no 'moral' dimension in the Christian sense. Life & death are seen as part of a cycle, not as opposites in conflict. And, again, Death is the great theme of LotR - the love of the world in those doomed to leave it, & the wearness & yearning for escape in those destined to remain within it. Yet the Pagan view was that the two worlds, this one & the Otherworld, intermingled & anyone could pass from one to the other.

And the orcs, as you say, are the great problem - the great problem. They are born orcs, but they are, as Tolkien admits, moral beings. They have souls, & when they die (this is a later thought of Tolkien's) their souls go to Mandos. Yet the Halls of Mandos are a place for reflection & judgement. If they can reflect on their lives, & be judged for their actions, they must have had the capacity for moral decisions. Yet they don't. Indeed, the Mythology would lose its impact if we were always uncertain about the orcs' behaviour. If we felt that any orc that appeared might decide to help the heroes, or could be won over to the good side, they wouldn't be so powerful & frightening. Its the very fact that we know they are irredemebly 'evil' that makes them the terrifying beings they are. Its also what justifies our easiness with their slaughter. We don't feel sorry for the orcs because we know they are heartless, cruel & beyond 'salvation'. Our 'heroes' remain heroes in our minds no matter how many orcs they slaughter, because we know that 'the only good orc is a dead orc'. Ths can only be if we feel they are evil incarnate. While the Dunlendings who attack Helm's Deep are spared, the orcs aren't - & we agree that that is a correct policy. But 'Nothing is evil in the beginning' Tolkien tells us through Elrond. But he must be wrong, mustn't he - maybe the first Elves, twisted & corrupted into orcs, weren't evil, but those born orcs were bad from the start - from the moment they were born. They cannot be 'saved', cannot 'repent' - or if they can, our 'heroes' are not heroes when they slaughter them without compunction. Unless its a case of 'Kill them all, Eru will know his own'.

You're right. Orcs are the problem. The Nazgul chose to take the Rings. Saruman chose to pursue power. Even Shelob, while she must eat, chooses to 'play' & 'make sport' of her captives. But orcs don't choose to be orcs. They've been brought into Middle Earth from Faerie, taken from a world where they were evil simply because that's what goblins in Faerie are like, & placed in a moral universe, where salvation or damnation are, for everyone else, the consequence of a moral choice, a choice which they are denied.