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Michael Martinez · 03-22-2001, 11:54 AM

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Re: canon and questions

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published.<hr></blockquote>

I used The Silmarillion as a common reference for discussing the kingship of the Noldor, but in terms of "primary texts", my reference was to the primary texts which Christopher Tolkien used to compile The Silmarilion.

And my part in this was not to discuss a canon.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yet if they are to damaging to the text.<hr></blockquote>

To work Fingolfin's claim into the storyline, you must change the political map of Beleriand prior to Fingolfin's death, and in doing so you have to change all references to what the ambitions of the various princes were. How, for example, can Finrod be the overlord of all the Elves of West Beleriand, under Thingol's authority, if he is still merely a prince of the Noldor under Fingolfin's rule? Nargothrond would merely be a province in the kingdom of the Noldor, and that doesn't work within the framework of the Quenta.

I think Tolkien would have realized this and he probably would have allowed the kingships to stand, even if he would have extended Fingolfin's claim to be Finwe's heir back to Tirion.

There comes a point where the later texts are simply incompatible with the texts of the LoTR era.

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03-22-2001, 11:54 AM	#42
Michael Martinez Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 48	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 29</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: canon and questions <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> 1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published.<hr></blockquote> I used The Silmarillion* as a common reference for discussing the kingship of the Noldor, but in terms of "primary texts", my reference was to the primary texts which Christopher Tolkien used to compile The Silmarilion. And my part in this was not to discuss a canon. <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> 2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yet if they are to damaging to the text.<hr></blockquote> To work Fingolfin's claim into the storyline, you must change the political map of Beleriand prior to Fingolfin's death, and in doing so you have to change all references to what the ambitions of the various princes were. How, for example, can Finrod be the overlord of all the Elves of West Beleriand, under Thingol's authority, if he is still merely a prince of the Noldor under Fingolfin's rule? Nargothrond would merely be a province in the kingdom of the Noldor, and that doesn't work within the framework of the Quenta. I think Tolkien would have realized this and he probably would have allowed the kingships to stand, even if he would have extended Fingolfin's claim to be Finwe's heir back to Tirion. There comes a point where the later texts are simply incompatible with the texts of the LoTR era. http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a> http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a> http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml1500+ Hercules/Xena Links</a> http://www.xenite.org/books/visualiz...dle-earth.htmlVisualizing Middle-earth, a book on Tolkien</a> http://www.xenite.org/special_events/vicky_shaffer.htmlVicky Shaffer: Monster or mother? Is Brianna in any danger?</a> </p>