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**lindil** · 03-22-2001, 09:32 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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the debate turns canonical

lindil: "but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for
nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]"

MM said;" Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion.
That was the point of the entire exercise."

I brought that up to show that while he was not ruling as King [which I have conceded elsewhere]
it provides the context of how he was perceived as King in fact if not name from the time of Finwe's death.

I think the use of Peoples of M-E is valid all though we have to be clear re: dates and the lack of canonicity at this point for either [well not quite as I recall a post from a loooong time ago [in barrow time at least] where the 1977 Silm was seen as canon] but I think since then the level of education here at the downs has risen to a level where we can discuss the alternate versions, and the Silmarillion's non [or semi?]-canonical status w/out all the apples spilling from the cart.

It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME and no from the 77 well after looking over JRRT's PoME it is possible that he conceived of Fingolfin's ruling the Noldor as a kIngship ,btu he certainly never stated it a ssuch and it seems w/ the 77 and Morgoth's Ring versions he would have been renouncing any such claim before the throne of Manwe . this is to my mind a somewhat difficult situation.

As to which one should be seen as the 'canonical ' story [ assuming one accepts CRT's publicaly printing in HoME 11 that there are aspects of the work {the 77 Silm} that he 'views w/ regret'] there we enter into a whole new debate. and one that will have 'canonical'- textual ramifications.

I do [as do other veiwers not posting] find the whole thing fascinating even though I am not up to the speed of yourselves [Michael and Tar - Elenion], I do hope however that we can avoid loss of peace in the discussion [def. one of the most interesting in the Books forum in a while].

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

03-22-2001, 09:32 AM	#36
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 509</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> the debate turns canonical lindil: "but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]" MM said;" Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise." I brought that up to show that while he was not ruling as King [which I have conceded elsewhere] it provides the context of how he was perceived as King in fact if not name from the time of Finwe's death. I think the use of Peoples of M-E is valid all though we have to be clear re: dates and the lack of canonicity at this point for either [well not quite as I recall a post from a loooong time ago [in barrow time at least] where the 1977 Silm was seen as canon] but I think since then the level of education here at the downs has risen to a level where we can discuss the alternate versions, and the Silmarillion's non [or semi?]-canonical status w/out all the apples spilling from the cart. It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME and no from the 77 well after looking over JRRT's PoME it is possible that he conceived of Fingolfin's ruling the Noldor as a kIngship ,btu he certainly never stated it a ssuch and it seems w/ the 77 and Morgoth's Ring versions he would have been renouncing any such claim before the throne of Manwe . this is to my mind a somewhat difficult situation. As to which one should be seen as the 'canonical ' story [ assuming one accepts CRT's publicaly printing in HoME 11 that there are aspects of the work {the 77 Silm} that he 'views w/ regret'] there we enter into a whole new debate. and one that will have 'canonical'- textual ramifications. I do [as do other veiwers not posting] find the whole thing fascinating even though I am not up to the speed of yourselves [Michael and Tar - Elenion], I do hope however that we can avoid loss of peace in the discussion [def. one of the most interesting in the Books forum in a while]. Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.