The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - LotR

Child of the 7th Age · 06-16-2004, 12:13 AM

Phantom,

Well, what can I say? I never claimed Hobbits were perfect (nor did Tolkien)! In fact, he once explicitly denied this in his Letters. Since objects seem to change hands frequently in the Shire, one mathom here or there doesn't seem to make a difference!

I say this only half in jest, since objects seemed to change hands regularly in the Shire between people of all stations in life.

Moreover, the "mayhem" you refer to was not the result of some diabolical plot or series of lies, but the natural outgrowth of the Hobbits' generous custom of giving away things to people on their own birthday coupled with their own attachment to their possessions. One gets the sense that Bilbo could be incredibly generous but still had a minor streak of possessiveness even before the Ring. He was probably not unique in this regard. Tolkien stood back with a gentle smile on his face, viewing the disorder and the pranks of the children, human/hobbit foibles that he could surely understand. This is intended to be funny, precisely because it was not the kind of raid, pillage, and lies that appear later in the book. This is a difference that Tolkien assumed his reader would share in the humor and understand.

Now, on that question Guinevere raised earlier on the thread concerning the Hobbits in the modern world.... I can't say where they are in 2004, but there is an interesting hint in a treatise written by Michael Aislabie Denham between 1846 and 1859 entitled "When the Whole Earth was Overrun with Ghosts". Look at the second paragraph from the bottom, nine lines up, and you will see a clear reference to "hobbits" who, according to the author, lived seventy or eight years before, which would date them as late as 1780.

Click here.

I seriously wonder whether JRRT ever read this and it sank into a dark corner of his head, later retrieved when he was writing those exam papers.

*************

Fordim -

I certainly concur that because LotR has "hobbit" narrators we are given a certain viewpoint, and that it's interesting to consider how that viewpoint influenced the narrative as we discuss the chapters. In the Silm we also have a unique view--that of the Elves,-- since Bilbo apparently did a job of simple compilation rather than reconstructing the entire narrative. Both books are "limited" as well as enriched by their unique perspective.

Rather, my differences come in the other issue you raise: to what extent is the hobbit view specifically provided by Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise marked by a parochial outlook, implicit acceptance of lies, and a possible tendency to look down their noses at other cultures. I don't see it. This seems to me to be the opposite of what Tolkien was trying to get across.

06-16-2004, 12:13 AM	#66
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Hobbits as "criminals" and tracking modern hobbits... Phantom, Well, what can I say? I never claimed Hobbits were perfect (nor did Tolkien)! In fact, he once explicitly denied this in his Letters. Since objects seem to change hands frequently in the Shire, one mathom here or there doesn't seem to make a difference! I say this only half in jest, since objects seemed to change hands regularly in the Shire between people of all stations in life. Moreover, the "mayhem" you refer to was not the result of some diabolical plot or series of lies, but the natural outgrowth of the Hobbits' generous custom of giving away things to people on their own birthday coupled with their own attachment to their possessions. One gets the sense that Bilbo could be incredibly generous but still had a minor streak of possessiveness even before the Ring. He was probably not unique in this regard. Tolkien stood back with a gentle smile on his face, viewing the disorder and the pranks of the children, human/hobbit foibles that he could surely understand. This is intended to be funny, precisely because it was not the kind of raid, pillage, and lies that appear later in the book. This is a difference that Tolkien assumed his reader would share in the humor and understand. Now, on that question Guinevere raised earlier on the thread concerning the Hobbits in the modern world.... I can't say where they are in 2004, but there is an interesting hint in a treatise written by Michael Aislabie Denham between 1846 and 1859 entitled "When the Whole Earth was Overrun with Ghosts". Look at the second paragraph from the bottom, nine lines up, and you will see a clear reference to "hobbits" who, according to the author, lived seventy or eight years before, which would date them as late as 1780. Click here. I seriously wonder whether JRRT ever read this and it sank into a dark corner of his head, later retrieved when he was writing those exam papers. *********** Fordim -** I certainly concur that because LotR has "hobbit" narrators we are given a certain viewpoint, and that it's interesting to consider how that viewpoint influenced the narrative as we discuss the chapters. In the Silm we also have a unique view--that of the Elves,-- since Bilbo apparently did a job of simple compilation rather than reconstructing the entire narrative. Both books are "limited" as well as enriched by their unique perspective. Rather, my differences come in the other issue you raise: to what extent is the hobbit view specifically provided by Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise marked by a parochial outlook, implicit acceptance of lies, and a possible tendency to look down their noses at other cultures. I don't see it. This seems to me to be the opposite of what Tolkien was trying to get across. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 06-16-2004 at 07:40 AM.