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HerenIstarion · 05-13-2004, 04:12 AM

One day off, and a wagon-load of posts for me to catch up. But there was a good read on them, and I feel the urge to type I haven't experienced for months before Evil Things thread came to the surface, and which has become even more intense with this particular one, reaching the state of some kind of itch in my fingertips

First of all, my apologies if I sounded like a cheerleader with my post #296. It had indeed the cheering up of certain people in mind, who started to sound a bit bitter to me, so I wanted a bit of Joy around for their enjoyment. I'm sorry if it looked as deliberate 'side-taking', but, well, being of certain views and beliefs, I naturally tend to support people of similar mindset. That does not, definitely, imply my disrespect of any kind or form with regards to opinions of those of the different mindset (even if I fail to make it seen clearly), and the form of cheering up I chose seemed appropriate at the time of choosing. My apologies to those who found it appalling.

Now to essentials - I should say we are already past Tolkien in our discussion and touching here and there on the basic facts about the reality. The whole issue of Truth/truth is grounded not on difference of appreciation of the text, but difference of entire outlook, be it materialistic or religious. Being of the latter, I have a logical (yes, justified and made logical by the fact of my belief) ground to conclude that some statements about the world are more true than others. (and the truth does not lie in numbers, but in relation of each statement to the ultimate Truth), Said Truth with capital T, at Aiwendil's bidding, and not only, I am willing indeed to name as God)

Before I proceed to what I'm going to say, I would be allowed to made a disclaimer: what follows is not posted with the intention to force my views (or such a 'horrible' thing as religion is) on anyone, Eru forbid

). I just hold that I owe you all one, for what forms the ground of Tolkien understanding for me, is rooted, as I've said, in the basic Fact about the world I hold to be true. And, as I believe it to be true, I would be glad if I succed in convincing some in its truth.

So, I hold that the world we live in is created by omnipotent and benevolent Being. I also hold that Evil found in the world is not due to some flaw in said omnipotency or benevolence of the Creator, but because of Freedom given creatures to do as they will, for without such a Freedom they can not be loved in a 'proper way', or indeed would be not worth loving, but mere 'things', or 'items'. I hold also that the creatures, given the ability to do so, indeed have 'gone wrong', abused their freedom and are now ina state which is technically defined, (or merely known, choose whichever you like) as Fallen. but measures to correct such a situation are already taken (Eucatastophe). Despite the fact of being fallen, creatures retain the built-in standard of Good and Evil against which their actions are measured and which is the basic ground for all moralities of all societies throughout history we have a notion of. Furthermore, I hold that, though some of our actions may be well the subsequent to us being half animals, and having instincts, or developments of such instincts, the act of choice we make when acting, and preferring one over the other is not instinct in itself, but the application of combined Freedom/Built in Standard of Good and Wrong. So, much asked for definitions would be (clumsily, no doubt, but I try my best to be honest) as follows:

1. Truth – recognition of createdness of our world by God, as well as built-in moral low, standard of Good and Evil, which enables us to distinguish those and bring ouserves in conformity with Good and unity with God
2. Joy – natural state of unfallen, and state to which redeemed will be returned of unity and harmony with God. The enjoyment and aestetical pleausure associated are natural parts of it, but not the end of it. The end is Truth, i.e., said unity and harmony with God. The feeling of Joy usually convoys the recognition of Truth
3. Light – traditionally vaguely defined substance what corresponds with two previous terms. May be used separately to mark or even replace each.
4. Eucatastrophe – the correcting push, bringing stray humanity back to confomity with the Truth. Accompinied by feeling of Joy, as of enjoyment and recognition, which is indicator of the turnover in the direction of Truth.

Furthermore, I hold that all of the above is arguble logically, even if by means of a 'mere' syllogism. Try that one out:

If the world is a result of random development, the conscious mind of a man, is, likewise, result of enourmously long chain of over-numerous accidents, and thinking process which takes place in said mind is equally accidental and random. Therefore, any conclusions that mind comes to, are all based on billion years worth of fortuity, and chances of it reflecting the affairs 'as they are' are ridiculously small. Indeed, if my mind is random, why conclusion I make with it should be true? (The whole modern cosmogonic theory, coming down to 'in the beginning there was nothing, which exploded' sounds like quite a funny joke to my ear)

Now invert that last paragraph. What is the result? It comes that, only when one admits that universe, and, therefore, one's mind is created by already consicous Being, one's minds claim to possesion of an ability of digging the truth out is based on anything more than a whiff of a wind.

Following all of the above, I hold that some interpretations of anything (including Tolkien) are more right than others, being in closer proximity to Truth in both senses (recognition and built-in standard) (With that admitting that some maybe 'righter' than mine, of course)

Therefore, I can argue that truth lies not in number of people holding this or that statement to be true, but in conformity of the statements itself to the one Big T, if I am allowed to joke about it in such a crude way. And, though I hold that 'sky is blue' and 'water is wet' type of 'truths' also form a part of the Truth, it is essentially about what is Right and what is Wrong. And if to murder is wrong, it is not because certain number of people believe it to be so, but because it is simply so. If 95 out of 100 held murded to be good, it nevertheless would have been bad, because it is simply bad.

As I have fleetingly mentioned above, the rightenss/wrongness of interpratation does not stand in the way of enjoyment. So, there is no claim of mine to state that any feelings, thoughts, inspirations any of you experienced while reading Tolkien are of less value than the next man's, that is, mine.

Furthermore I hold that Tolkien deliberately constructed his stories as to reflect, retell the Truth (again, in both senses), but, instead of using mere statemens just as I did, used a more subtle way of Joy. Inherent standard of Good and Evil enables us to glimpse those, even if uncounsiously so.

But, and very grave 'but' at that, as sub-creation is yet another expression of Man's likeness ot God, Tolkien's [sub]creation may be enjoyed without such a directed revelation, without statement of belief, as things in themselves, artworks. But, another grave 'but', to evaluate those as merely artworks is wrong, but, third grave 'but', only if one making evaluation aknowledges the truth of the Truth, Joy, Light and Eucatastrophe. If he/she denies such a Truth, than he/she may be content to consider LoTR as mere artwork, and is right in doing so..

But, as I've said, I do believe my approach to be more right than some, yet, I would repeat – it does not imply disrespect, or animosity, or any other hard feeling towards those holding different opinion, though, I'm sorrowed to admit, I hold it to be superior approach, as I believe it to be more correct, or more true one.

Confession's over, shoot who will..

05-13-2004, 04:12 AM	#328
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	One day off, and a wagon-load of posts for me to catch up. But there was a good read on them, and I feel the urge to type I haven't experienced for months before Evil Things thread came to the surface, and which has become even more intense with this particular one, reaching the state of some kind of itch in my fingertips First of all, my apologies if I sounded like a cheerleader with my post #296. It had indeed the cheering up of certain people in mind, who started to sound a bit bitter to me, so I wanted a bit of Joy around for their enjoyment. I'm sorry if it looked as deliberate 'side-taking', but, well, being of certain views and beliefs, I naturally tend to support people of similar mindset. That does not, definitely, imply my disrespect of any kind or form with regards to opinions of those of the different mindset (even if I fail to make it seen clearly), and the form of cheering up I chose seemed appropriate at the time of choosing. My apologies to those who found it appalling. Now to essentials - I should say we are already past Tolkien in our discussion and touching here and there on the basic facts about the reality. The whole issue of Truth/truth is grounded not on difference of appreciation of the text, but difference of entire outlook, be it materialistic or religious. Being of the latter, I have a logical (yes, justified and made logical by the fact of my belief) ground to conclude that some statements about the world are more true than others. (and the truth does not lie in numbers, but in relation of each statement to the ultimate Truth), Said Truth with capital T, at Aiwendil's bidding, and not only, I am willing indeed to name as God) Before I proceed to what I'm going to say, I would be allowed to made a disclaimer: what follows is not posted with the intention to force my views (or such a 'horrible' thing as religion is) on anyone, Eru forbid ). I just hold that I owe you all one, for what forms the ground of Tolkien understanding for me, is rooted, as I've said, in the basic Fact about the world I hold to be true. And, as I believe it to be true, I would be glad if I succed in convincing some in its truth. So, I hold that the world we live in is created by omnipotent and benevolent Being. I also hold that Evil found in the world is not due to some flaw in said omnipotency or benevolence of the Creator, but because of Freedom given creatures to do as they will, for without such a Freedom they can not be loved in a 'proper way', or indeed would be not worth loving, but mere 'things', or 'items'. I hold also that the creatures, given the ability to do so, indeed have 'gone wrong', abused their freedom and are now ina state which is technically defined, (or merely known, choose whichever you like) as Fallen. but measures to correct such a situation are already taken (Eucatastophe). Despite the fact of being fallen, creatures retain the built-in standard of Good and Evil against which their actions are measured and which is the basic ground for all moralities of all societies throughout history we have a notion of. Furthermore, I hold that, though some of our actions may be well the subsequent to us being half animals, and having instincts, or developments of such instincts, the act of choice we make when acting, and preferring one over the other is not instinct in itself, but the application of combined Freedom/Built in Standard of Good and Wrong. So, much asked for definitions would be (clumsily, no doubt, but I try my best to be honest) as follows: 1. Truth – recognition of createdness of our world by God, as well as built-in moral low, standard of Good and Evil, which enables us to distinguish those and bring ouserves in conformity with Good and unity with God 2. Joy – natural state of unfallen, and state to which redeemed will be returned of unity and harmony with God. The enjoyment and aestetical pleausure associated are natural parts of it, but not the end of it. The end is Truth, i.e., said unity and harmony with God. The feeling of Joy usually convoys the recognition of Truth 3. Light – traditionally vaguely defined substance what corresponds with two previous terms. May be used separately to mark or even replace each. 4. Eucatastrophe – the correcting push, bringing stray humanity back to confomity with the Truth. Accompinied by feeling of Joy, as of enjoyment and recognition, which is indicator of the turnover in the direction of Truth. Furthermore, I hold that all of the above is arguble logically, even if by means of a 'mere' syllogism. Try that one out: If the world is a result of random development, the conscious mind of a man, is, likewise, result of enourmously long chain of over-numerous accidents, and thinking process which takes place in said mind is equally accidental and random. Therefore, any conclusions that mind comes to, are all based on billion years worth of fortuity, and chances of it reflecting the affairs 'as they are' are ridiculously small. Indeed, if my mind is random, why conclusion I make with it should be true? (The whole modern cosmogonic theory, coming down to 'in the beginning there was nothing, which exploded' sounds like quite a funny joke to my ear) Now invert that last paragraph. What is the result? It comes that, only when one admits that universe, and, therefore, one's mind is created by already consicous Being, one's minds claim to possesion of an ability of digging the truth out is based on anything more than a whiff of a wind. Following all of the above, I hold that some interpretations of anything (including Tolkien) are more right than others, being in closer proximity to Truth in both senses (recognition and built-in standard) (With that admitting that some maybe 'righter' than mine, of course) Therefore, I can argue that truth lies not in number of people holding this or that statement to be true, but in conformity of the statements itself to the one Big T, if I am allowed to joke about it in such a crude way. And, though I hold that 'sky is blue' and 'water is wet' type of 'truths' also form a part of the Truth, it is essentially about what is Right and what is Wrong. And if to murder is wrong, it is not because certain number of people believe it to be so, but because it is simply so. If 95 out of 100 held murded to be good, it nevertheless would have been bad, because it is simply bad. As I have fleetingly mentioned above, the rightenss/wrongness of interpratation does not stand in the way of enjoyment. So, there is no claim of mine to state that any feelings, thoughts, inspirations any of you experienced while reading Tolkien are of less value than the next man's, that is, mine. Furthermore I hold that Tolkien deliberately constructed his stories as to reflect, retell the Truth (again, in both senses), but, instead of using mere statemens just as I did, used a more subtle way of Joy. Inherent standard of Good and Evil enables us to glimpse those, even if uncounsiously so. But, and very grave 'but' at that, as sub-creation is yet another expression of Man's likeness ot God, Tolkien's [sub]creation may be enjoyed without such a directed revelation, without statement of belief, as things in themselves, artworks. But, another grave 'but', to evaluate those as merely artworks is wrong, but, third grave 'but', only if one making evaluation aknowledges the truth of the Truth, Joy, Light and Eucatastrophe. If he/she denies such a Truth, than he/she may be content to consider LoTR as mere artwork, and is right in doing so.. But, as I've said, I do believe my approach to be more right than some, yet, I would repeat – it does not imply disrespect, or animosity, or any other hard feeling towards those holding different opinion, though, I'm sorrowed to admit, I hold it to be superior approach, as I believe it to be more correct, or more true one. Confession's over, shoot who will.. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!