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davem · 05-12-2004, 04:22 AM

I didn't mean to imply that. I'm simply taking Tolkien's statements at face value, because they strike me as expressing what I feel about things.

The problem I have is with restricting what we can discuss to the 'lowest common denominator' - ie, what we can all agree on, & excluding everything which challenges our own belief system. If we exclude anything which will not fit with your & Aiwendil's worldview, then that would exclude a large part of what I consider to be important, & the discussion would become too restrictive for me - I would have to censor everything I wanted to say to fit it in.

Believe it or not ( & while it may have made some embarrassed or uncomfortable) my recounting of my 'encounter' with my Guradian Angel was to make a point. Was it 'True'? Well, I could explain it in terms of psychology & chemical reactions in the brain, & thereby find 'common ground' with you & Aiwendil. But if I did I would be denying the essential part of the experience - the emotional, the Numinous. Also, by reducing the experience to something that could be encompassed by psychology, I enable you to respond - 'There, I told you it was 'nothing but' psychology'. Any attempt to fully understand what I experienced, to my satisfaction at least, requires that any 'common ground' is wide enough to include the fact of Guardian Angels - though I have no 'logical' explanation of where they come from, other than to srart talking about 'Truth' again, or assign any logical 'meaning' to the experience beyond the simple fact of its intense 'reality' to myself.

The question, as far as discussing Tolkien goes, is: is our 'common ground wide enough to include 'Truth', Joy, Light from beyond the story, which can break through it, or not? If not, isnt it a bit like trying to discull Middle Earth, but refusing to mention the Elves?

That's not to say we can't discuss specific events or characters within the Legendarium, but this thread, intentionally or not, has come to be about 'meaning' - what Tolkien meant, what his intentions were, what, exactly, his philosophical position was.

05-12-2004, 04:22 AM	#315
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I didn't mean to imply that. I'm simply taking Tolkien's statements at face value, because they strike me as expressing what I feel about things. The problem I have is with restricting what we can discuss to the 'lowest common denominator' - ie, what we can all agree on, & excluding everything which challenges our own belief system. If we exclude anything which will not fit with your & Aiwendil's worldview, then that would exclude a large part of what I consider to be important, & the discussion would become too restrictive for me - I would have to censor everything I wanted to say to fit it in. Believe it or not ( & while it may have made some embarrassed or uncomfortable) my recounting of my 'encounter' with my Guradian Angel was to make a point. Was it 'True'? Well, I could explain it in terms of psychology & chemical reactions in the brain, & thereby find 'common ground' with you & Aiwendil. But if I did I would be denying the essential part of the experience - the emotional, the Numinous. Also, by reducing the experience to something that could be encompassed by psychology, I enable you to respond - 'There, I told you it was 'nothing but' psychology'. Any attempt to fully understand what I experienced, to my satisfaction at least, requires that any 'common ground' is wide enough to include the fact of Guardian Angels - though I have no 'logical' explanation of where they come from, other than to srart talking about 'Truth' again, or assign any logical 'meaning' to the experience beyond the simple fact of its intense 'reality' to myself. The question, as far as discussing Tolkien goes, is: is our 'common ground wide enough to include 'Truth', Joy, Light from beyond the story, which can break through it, or not? If not, isnt it a bit like trying to discull Middle Earth, but refusing to mention the Elves? That's not to say we can't discuss specific events or characters within the Legendarium, but this thread, intentionally or not, has come to be about 'meaning' - what Tolkien meant, what his intentions were, what, exactly, his philosophical position was. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 05-12-2004 at 05:02 AM.