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davem · 05-12-2004, 02:31 AM

Thanks, but I don't know that I deserve it - I don't think I do, really.

I suppose Estel & Amdir are related, but Estel is trust in things beyond the world, a belief that even if things in this world never progress beyond 'fighting the Long Defeat', there is hope beyond the circles of the World. Amdir is belief that things can be made better in this world, but that does not necesarily deny Estel. It merely requires the holder to be 'optimistic'. Estel, on the other hand, can be held to by the most pessimistic person - pessimistic in terms of the world, that is.

I wouldn't say Estel is a form of Amdir, though, as Estel is the more 'spiritual' of the two, & doesn't depend on Amdir. I don't know that Amdir depends on estel either - the two are not mutually exclusive though, & one could hold to both - Men seem to, generally speaking. Elves seem to lean more & more towards Estel pure & simple - maybe that's down to their long experience of life in Arda. It is odd that the longer one dwells in Arda the more ones hope & trust lies in something beyond it. Its a profound contradiction, & maybe has something to teach us - immortal life in this world will lead only to lack of amdir, & only estel would, in the end, be enough to make that immortality bearable.

Amdir fluctuates, is transitory, & depends on circumstances, whereas Estel, being founded in eternity or 'Truth', is constant. I think that's Tolkien's reason for distinguishing them, & the point of the Athrabeth itself in many ways.

05-12-2004, 02:31 AM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Thanks, but I don't know that I deserve it - I don't think I do, really. I suppose Estel & Amdir are related, but Estel is trust in things beyond the world, a belief that even if things in this world never progress beyond 'fighting the Long Defeat', there is hope beyond the circles of the World. Amdir is belief that things can be made better in this world, but that does not necesarily deny Estel. It merely requires the holder to be 'optimistic'. Estel, on the other hand, can be held to by the most pessimistic person - pessimistic in terms of the world, that is. I wouldn't say Estel is a form of Amdir, though, as Estel is the more 'spiritual' of the two, & doesn't depend on Amdir. I don't know that Amdir depends on estel either - the two are not mutually exclusive though, & one could hold to both - Men seem to, generally speaking. Elves seem to lean more & more towards Estel pure & simple - maybe that's down to their long experience of life in Arda. It is odd that the longer one dwells in Arda the more ones hope & trust lies in something beyond it. Its a profound contradiction, & maybe has something to teach us - immortal life in this world will lead only to lack of amdir, & only estel would, in the end, be enough to make that immortality bearable. Amdir fluctuates, is transitory, & depends on circumstances, whereas Estel, being founded in eternity or 'Truth', is constant. I think that's Tolkien's reason for distinguishing them, & the point of the Athrabeth itself in many ways. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."