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Dininziliel · 05-04-2004, 01:35 AM

I gave up on the idea of trying to compose a full-fledged post after it took me two hours to compile what follows. I’m simply going to let it stand as a draft of excerpted quotes & responses that struck me along the way in the order that I was struck. The unfolding of this thread as follows was surprising, and also renewed a small hope for the near future of my brain cells.

Then again we can come around the fact that Iluvatar knew what was going to happen, he knew what they were going to choose to do, but I don’t think we can fully understand his mind. [Hookbill the Goomba] A god I can fully understand with the mind I currently have couldn’t do much for me; I need something much, much bigger.

but other beauty and goodness can reach him; it simply cannot be found where he had always looked before. [LMP] As the sayings go, when we do what we’ve always done, we’ll get what we always got; and if we expect different results, we’re insane. (history, anyone?)

it seems to me, that light and joy take up into itself all the darkness and horror and suffering, and transform it into something new. [LMP] There is no joy that does not contain sorrow; joy w/out sorrow = mere happiness. IMO, another way to say what LotR is about is that it is an exemplification of the journey to joy.

. . . rather than causing Arda to be marred, he allowed it to be marred. [Firefoot] Many people have an immature understanding of God and confuse “allowing” w/”causing.” Understanding that small difference makes the whole difference in how we perceive the world, God, and ourselves in relationship to all.

But in creating Arda already flawed by incorporating Melkor's themes Eru increases the likelihood that the Children will choose evil [davem] God allowed the serpent into Eden—did God not know the nature of the creature he created?

If Eru, motivated by a desire to bring about the Good, (& even if He knew that it was the only way to achieve the Good), allows Evil into existence, is He not responsible for the suffering that results along the way to the good? [davem] No, because, we have the power to choose Good or Evil, Love or Fear. We are not doomed, forced, nor tricked into choosing evil/fear no matter how stacked the deck is. There is always the option to choose again. At any moment, we can choose heaven or we can choose hell. And we can do this over and over and over in any order we like. If this isn’t free will, then what is? IMO, it is axiomatic that we are responsible for our part in the consequences of our choices.

In a sense, Frodo IS the Music, rather than being a puppet of Eru. [Lyta_Underhill] Yes! Each of US is a note—the challenge is to play it beautifully. (That’s a quote, but I can’t recall the source.)

how can Eru be justified in choosing Frodo for the task in circumstances in which he (Frodo) cannot possibly concieve the scale of the loss which he will suffer in carrying it out . . [Saucepan Man] If not Frodo, who? Who could possibly know the full scale of the task? Is it possible for anyone at any time to understand the full scale of a task at any point in its undertaking? This is not possible as it is impossible to trace an action to an absolute beginning or to an absolute ending (as this discussion seems to be illustrating so well). [SM cont’d] and in which, once the Ring comes into his possession, he really has very little choice in the matter (if Sauron's victory is to be averted). It doesn’t matter what size the choice is, there is still a choice—if nothing else, we can choose a perspective. Read Viktor Frankl’s Will to Meaning for unforgettable & explicit evidence for this. (By the way, SM, I like your signature!)

And yet the question remains . . . Does Eru bear any responsibility for His choices [davem] This presupposes a sameness of level in being which is something that Lyta_Underhill brought up earlier. I guess a simpler way of saying this is, again, if I can understand God (or even Eru), then God (& Eru) are too small. Or . . . I make myself as big as God/Eru. Does God/Eru make choices as we understand the notion of choice? This is, indeed, a mystery I choose not to discuss this particular matter! (It can only remain a mystery upon which we can only dash our brain cells against in a vain attempt to solve.)

how much freedom do we actually have? Eru will step in to manipulate events & even individuals. [davem] Again, we have to freedom to choose again and again. Bilbo could have chosen to keep the Ring (Frodo did). Gollum could have chosen to forgive Frodo. (He didn’t.) There are lots of choices along the way that could have changed the outcome of the Ring in that year. It may be that God/Eru has “stacked the deck”—if so, I say, “Thank you!” because I can relax in the knowledge that all will be well. The fact that there is pain does not negate this for me, because I am now empowered w/the knowledge that though pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. It’s all a matter of perspective, aka choice! You can either blame God/Eru for what seems to be wrong on earth/ME, or you can be grateful for everything just as it is. [Din bows to Buddha]

Job, who lost everything, asked all kinds of "why" questions, and finally saw God; once he did, he no longer needed the question answered; having seen God was his answer. [LMP] Exactly. Well put!

The storm is still going on, but you can watch it from a safe distance. Perspective. [davem] Exactly.

Is he actually 'healed' in the sense of having what was wrong with him put right, or do his wounds remain forever, but he himself is made different by having had them inflicted on him, suffering them? [davem] Is there really a preferable difference (what is healing if it is not a transformation?), or is all this actually about not liking the way we perceive that God/Eru does things?

Completeness seems like the only possible conclusion to suffering, and it seems to be what Tolkien is suggesting not only for Frodo, but for Sam and the rest of the Fellowship as well. [LMP] Exactly. And for us, too. Suffering leads to transformation (when Love is chosen over fear); transformation leads to completeness; completeness = wholeness; wholeness = atonement (at-one-ment) = as one w/God = Heaven.

I suppose part of the problem is that LotR ends before we see Frodo's final state. [davem] I am reminded of Christ’s words to Thomas—“Must you see to believe?” If we could know by somehow seeing what has been “unseeable” does that not nullify free will? If I can know the answer to all my questions through my senses & mind (which is informed & shaped by the senses), then . . .think about it.

wounds remain ugly because they are not illuminated [davem] Exactly!

So, we can never see God in ourselves, only in those around us. [davem] While I’m further back on the journey than what I’m about to say, I sometimes think I’m on the road to it: Is there a difference between God outside and God inside? Do we not see ourselves in others and others in ourselves?

Has Frodo anything to repent of? [davem] Yes, in the sense of atonement, for believing that there is a separation between self & God and choosing self instead of God as evidenced when he claimed the Ring at Doom, thus necessitating the suffering for his transformation. Which brings us full circle to the beginning of this thread . . .

“I do not choose now” and “I will not.” This would seem to open the door to the idea that Frodo’s will has been overmastered by the Ring, and that he is not in control anymore. He is “not choosing” for his “will [is] not” his own anymore. [Fordim] As Tolkien has said, Frodo was overmatched, and thus doomed (as are we all when going mano a mano w/pure evil). However, he made the choices leading to that point. These choices were made of good & noble stuff at first (choosing others/Love), then slowly changed as he came nearer to Mt. Doom—he was choosing personal self, which resulted in the ultimate & inevitable abandonment of Higher Self (self in the world vs. Self in God). This is, IMO, the nature of Frodo’s wound/suffering.

So, 'enchantment' in this sense is not a delusion, but a sudden clear sight of the truth - which we here find in Tolkien's secondary world.. . Frodo, at the end, will not so much be 'healed' as 'enchanted'. [davem] Wow, I like this notion. I started checking out the Canonicity thread, but did a quick U-turn back to this one when I saw how deep Canonicity was. I’m going to complete my U-ee and do a 360! [And about time, too, exclaimed the chorus of exasperated hobbits!

]

05-04-2004, 01:35 AM	#79
Dininziliel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: 3rd star from the right over Kansas Posts: 108	I gave up on the idea of trying to compose a full-fledged post after it took me two hours to compile what follows. I’m simply going to let it stand as a draft of excerpted quotes & responses that struck me along the way in the order that I was struck. The unfolding of this thread as follows was surprising, and also renewed a small hope for the near future of my brain cells. Then again we can come around the fact that Iluvatar knew what was going to happen, he knew what they were going to choose to do, but I don’t think we can fully understand his mind. [Hookbill the Goomba] A god I can fully understand with the mind I currently have couldn’t do much for me; I need something much, much bigger. but other beauty and goodness can reach him; it simply cannot be found where he had always looked before. [LMP] As the sayings go, when we do what we’ve always done, we’ll get what we always got; and if we expect different results, we’re insane. (history, anyone?) it seems to me, that light and joy take up into itself all the darkness and horror and suffering, and transform it into something new. [LMP] There is no joy that does not contain sorrow; joy w/out sorrow = mere happiness. IMO, another way to say what LotR is about is that it is an exemplification of the journey to joy. . . . rather than causing Arda to be marred, he allowed it to be marred. [Firefoot] Many people have an immature understanding of God and confuse “allowing” w/”causing.” Understanding that small difference makes the whole difference in how we perceive the world, God, and ourselves in relationship to all. But in creating Arda already flawed by incorporating Melkor's themes Eru increases the likelihood that the Children will choose evil [davem] God allowed the serpent into Eden—did God not know the nature of the creature he created? If Eru, motivated by a desire to bring about the Good, (& even if He knew that it was the only way to achieve the Good), allows Evil into existence, is He not responsible for the suffering that results along the way to the good? [davem] No, because, we have the power to choose Good or Evil, Love or Fear. We are not doomed, forced, nor tricked into choosing evil/fear no matter how stacked the deck is. There is always the option to choose again. At any moment, we can choose heaven or we can choose hell. And we can do this over and over and over in any order we like. If this isn’t free will, then what is? IMO, it is axiomatic that we are responsible for our part in the consequences of our choices. In a sense, Frodo IS the Music, rather than being a puppet of Eru. [Lyta_Underhill] Yes! Each of US is a note—the challenge is to play it beautifully. (That’s a quote, but I can’t recall the source.) how can Eru be justified in choosing Frodo for the task in circumstances in which he (Frodo) cannot possibly concieve the scale of the loss which he will suffer in carrying it out . . [Saucepan Man] If not Frodo, who? Who could possibly know the full scale of the task? Is it possible for anyone at any time to understand the full scale of a task at any point in its undertaking? This is not possible as it is impossible to trace an action to an absolute beginning or to an absolute ending (as this discussion seems to be illustrating so well). [SM cont’d] and in which, once the Ring comes into his possession, he really has very little choice in the matter (if Sauron's victory is to be averted). It doesn’t matter what size the choice is, there is still a choice—if nothing else, we can choose a perspective. Read Viktor Frankl’s Will to Meaning for unforgettable & explicit evidence for this. (By the way, SM, I like your signature!) And yet the question remains . . . Does Eru bear any responsibility for His choices [davem] This presupposes a sameness of level in being which is something that Lyta_Underhill brought up earlier. I guess a simpler way of saying this is, again, if I can understand God (or even Eru), then God (& Eru) are too small. Or . . . I make myself as big as God/Eru. Does God/Eru make choices as we understand the notion of choice? This is, indeed, a mystery I choose not to discuss this particular matter! (It can only remain a mystery upon which we can only dash our brain cells against in a vain attempt to solve.) how much freedom do we actually have? Eru will step in to manipulate events & even individuals. [davem] Again, we have to freedom to choose again and again. Bilbo could have chosen to keep the Ring (Frodo did). Gollum could have chosen to forgive Frodo. (He didn’t.) There are lots of choices along the way that could have changed the outcome of the Ring in that year. It may be that God/Eru has “stacked the deck”—if so, I say, “Thank you!” because I can relax in the knowledge that all will be well. The fact that there is pain does not negate this for me, because I am now empowered w/the knowledge that though pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. It’s all a matter of perspective, aka choice! You can either blame God/Eru for what seems to be wrong on earth/ME, or you can be grateful for everything just as it is. [Din bows to Buddha] Job, who lost everything, asked all kinds of "why" questions, and finally saw God; once he did, he no longer needed the question answered; having seen God was his answer. [LMP] Exactly. Well put! The storm is still going on, but you can watch it from a safe distance. Perspective. [davem] Exactly. Is he actually 'healed' in the sense of having what was wrong with him put right, or do his wounds remain forever, but he himself is made different by having had them inflicted on him, suffering them? [davem] Is there really a preferable difference (what is healing if it is not a transformation?), or is all this actually about not liking the way we perceive that God/Eru does things? Completeness seems like the only possible conclusion to suffering, and it seems to be what Tolkien is suggesting not only for Frodo, but for Sam and the rest of the Fellowship as well. [LMP] Exactly. And for us, too. Suffering leads to transformation (when Love is chosen over fear); transformation leads to completeness; completeness = wholeness; wholeness = atonement (at-one-ment) = as one w/God = Heaven. I suppose part of the problem is that LotR ends before we see Frodo's final state. [davem] I am reminded of Christ’s words to Thomas—“Must you see to believe?” If we could know by somehow seeing what has been “unseeable” does that not nullify free will? If I can know the answer to all my questions through my senses & mind (which is informed & shaped by the senses), then . . .think about it. wounds remain ugly because they are not illuminated [davem] Exactly! So, we can never see God in ourselves, only in those around us. [davem] While I’m further back on the journey than what I’m about to say, I sometimes think I’m on the road to it: Is there a difference between God outside and God inside? Do we not see ourselves in others and others in ourselves? Has Frodo anything to repent of? [davem] Yes, in the sense of atonement, for believing that there is a separation between self & God and choosing self instead of God as evidenced when he claimed the Ring at Doom, thus necessitating the suffering for his transformation. Which brings us full circle to the beginning of this thread . . . “I do not choose now” and “I will not.” This would seem to open the door to the idea that Frodo’s will has been overmastered by the Ring, and that he is not in control anymore. He is “not choosing” for his “will [is] not” his own anymore. [Fordim] As Tolkien has said, Frodo was overmatched, and thus doomed (as are we all when going mano a mano w/pure evil). However, he made the choices leading to that point. These choices were made of good & noble stuff at first (choosing others/Love), then slowly changed as he came nearer to Mt. Doom—he was choosing personal self, which resulted in the ultimate & inevitable abandonment of Higher Self (self in the world vs. Self in God). This is, IMO, the nature of Frodo’s wound/suffering. So, 'enchantment' in this sense is not a delusion, but a sudden clear sight of the truth - which we here find in Tolkien's secondary world.. . Frodo, at the end, will not so much be 'healed' as 'enchanted'. [davem] Wow, I like this notion. I started checking out the Canonicity thread, but did a quick U-turn back to this one when I saw how deep Canonicity was. I’m going to complete my U-ee and do a 360! [And about time, too, exclaimed the chorus of exasperated hobbits! ] __________________ "It is a journey without distance to a goal that has never changed."