[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

I don't think we can ask 'how much longer could Smith be before it became dreadfully boring?'

Because SoWM is complete as it is. It isn't an edited down version of a longer story.

I agree that it's complete as it is. The logic of the argument up to this point is as follows: Mr. Underhill and I argued that pure Faerie is not enough; there must be plot as well. You argued that Smith demonstrates that pure Faerie, without adventure, is in fact enough.

The claim I was trying to make by asking how much longer Smith could be without becoming boring was that Smith is a special case. Yes, pure Faerie without adventure is enough to sustain a short work like Smith that is, as much as anything else, a meditation upon fantasy and Faerie. But in general, for longer works or for works that are not primarily concerned with the art of fantasy, plot and adventure are needed (I would say, in fact, that they are the most important aspect).

Faerie is not a 'place' with a geographical location, or even a definite psychological one.

Agreed - this is more or less what I was arguing.

So Faerie is 'objectively' real.

I agree. I did not argue that it is not real. I only argued that it is not a place.

I'm not sure. Faerie has no 'purpose' at all - if by that you mean that its simply 'for' us, to provide raw material for the primary world enterprise of making up stories.

You're right; I was careless with my wording. But I stand by the sentiment, which is that in the context of fantasy literature, Faerie is used as a means (a very powerful one) to an end; it is not the end itself.

I think a very great deal 'happens' in Smith

Did I misunderstand you earlier, then? I thought that as an argument against the claim that "pure Faerie is not enough; things must actually happen" you pointed to Smith as an example of pure Faerie sufficing without plot.

I agree that Smith is not plotless. But it is a kind of minimalist plot, so I was willing to accept it as, approximately, an example of pure Faerie without incident.

To call it 'a disguised piece of literary theory more than as a work of fiction in its own right.' is to miss the point - what is Tolkien the 'literary theorist' telling us through the events Smith witnesses

Do you deny that it is, at least in large part, literary theory? If so, then why do you then inquire into Tolkien's role as a literary theorist? If not, then why am I missing the point?

I happen to think it's rather good literary theory, if it comes to that. My point was that it is not very typical of fantasy literature, nor even of Tolkien's work. I'll grant that Smith may be more or less a "window to Faerie" - but I think that it is the exception.

HerenIstarion wrote:

Well, I'll risk being called visionist (which I am not), but I'd say (in this lining up with mark:12-30, if I were to understand her post as she meant it), that in his late years (as in his young years, I'd say, but more obvioulsy so in later writings) Tolkien was not so much trying to conform his secondary world to the primary world, but to the Absolute Truth (call it Primary World with capitalization if you will).

I must say that all this discussion of "Truth" with a capital T makes me a bit uneasy. What is meant by it? Perhaps this is obvious to others, but I am perplexed. "Truth" as I understand it is a property of certain propositions (those propositions that are not false). It is a logical term.

Obviously, this is not the way in which it is being employed here. What, then, is it supposed to mean?

I suppose it may mean God, or heaven, or something like that. If that is indeed the case, I think it would be much more clear simply to say so.

If, then, I understand this correctly, the claim at hand is either that 1. the "Faerie" element that we detect in fantasy is in fact a reflection or image of God/heaven/"Truth" or 2. the first claim is true and, additionally, to achieve such an image is the primary purpose of fantasy.

Now, being non-religious, I obviously disagree with both of these claims.

The trouble is that there's not much more to say than that. I do not think that I fail to fully appreciate Tolkien's work because I don't subscribe to this notion of "Truth". Nor do I think that my appreciation of it is due, unbeknownst to me, to some subconscious acceptance of this "Truth".

And I think that the whole conjecture of "Truth" as the real identity of "Faerie" must be left at that, unless one whishes to enter into a debate on theological claims (which presumably one does not).