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Bêthberry · 08-24-2002, 06:33 PM

Hi Birdie,

I wish I were better at numerology and then perhaps I could offer a more significant reply. Also, I don't have Tolkien's Letters which might shed some light on his use of numbers. (hint: calling Child)

However, given Tolkien's pervasive use of iconography and symbols (JMHO), I think that the Celtic meaning for 9 could be very meaningful, especially given the 9 wraiths are balanced by the 9 members of the Fellowship. Were Pip and Merry part of the Fellowship from his first concept or were they added later? Are they simply 'spares' or does their presence provide something more significant? They are not ring-bearers.

I would have one other question about the numbers. Why was 9 so important to the Celts, other than its square root? Were there other numbers or a larger 'metasignificance' for numbers, a context which made them meaningful, which Tolkien could draw upon? Where does 9 fit in with 7 numerologically? (7 used to be an important number, as was 12) And what about the 5 who sail west at the end?

To me, Tolkien's relationship with things Celtic deserves much discussion and thought. Thanks for pointing this out.

Bethberry

08-24-2002, 06:33 PM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Hi Birdie, I wish I were better at numerology and then perhaps I could offer a more significant reply. Also, I don't have Tolkien's Letters which might shed some light on his use of numbers. (hint: calling Child) However, given Tolkien's pervasive use of iconography and symbols (JMHO), I think that the Celtic meaning for 9 could be very meaningful, especially given the 9 wraiths are balanced by the 9 members of the Fellowship. Were Pip and Merry part of the Fellowship from his first concept or were they added later? Are they simply 'spares' or does their presence provide something more significant? They are not ring-bearers. I would have one other question about the numbers. Why was 9 so important to the Celts, other than its square root? Were there other numbers or a larger 'metasignificance' for numbers, a context which made them meaningful, which Tolkien could draw upon? Where does 9 fit in with 7 numerologically? (7 used to be an important number, as was 12) And what about the 5 who sail west at the end? To me, Tolkien's relationship with things Celtic deserves much discussion and thought. Thanks for pointing this out. Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.