[Bêthberry]

I shouldn't think the point of this kind of discussion is to mortify or embarass people and I certainly hope my comments have not been taken to do that. The thread began with a very important point from Imladris, that many things simmer in that cauldron of our imagination, many things that often we are initially unaware of, which can often distract from how others see our writing. A large gap falls between the intention of the writer and the act of reading.


Will Witfoot, you bring a very important acknowledgement out into the open with your recognition that Warhammar spices your Tolkien gaming. If you, and other gamers here, have learnt something about your writing for the RPGs at Barrow Downs from this thread, then all well and good I say.

Imladris, jolly good of you to check out the dictionary meaning of 'Nancy boy.' As to your question of whether Tolkien would have called a man girlish as an insult, let's think a bit about what his style of writing is and what kind of attitude lies behind that original phrase.

I think we would all agree that Middle-earth represents an idealised world. The elves remember a light of purity or wholeness and the other races strive to do justice to that light. Characters can be petty and mean-spirited and fallible (some of the hobbits and Boromir and Denthor, Grima) but the nasty, viscious stuff falls to the orcs and even with them there is a limit to what they say.

Secondly, Tolkien's representation of women is idealistic in that the major female characters are respected, even revered. Frodo's reaction to Goldberry can be seen to include sexual attraction or interest, but it is clearly described and expressed within his growing sense of the significance of the elves. (That, if my memory serves me right, is a topic that has not been discussed here, how LOTR presents the elves, first from the frightful, wild legends reported by the hobbits, to a more serious, exalted role.) Even Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn, which is clearly a young woman's nascent awareness of the attractiveness of male power, is described respectfully. Sexuality in LOTR is not mere lust. The "Mirror of scorn" is not prevalent in Middle-earth, perhaps because of the importance Tolkien places on pity and perhaps because he has chosen to focus upon how good overcomes evil rather than to explore evil itself.

Given this kind of thinking about Middle-earth, it seems very doubtful to me that Tolkien would ever denigrate women by using female terms to deride men (besides the fact that I cannot remember any, but my memory is a faulty spoon with which to stir the broth).

There is a decorum in Tolkien's writing which much in modern writing and, even, modern culture and expression, just does not have.

My apologies if I have rambled on. I think this discussion is very valuable as a way of contributing to our understanding of what the RPG fora are about and particularly what it means for gamers as they move from The Shire through Rohan to Gondor. But perhaps that means I have taken this thread off topic. Sorry, Imladris.

Edit: As a sort of PS, Aman, I would point out that we do have a sense of historical perspective about the timing of Tolkien's world. The War of the Ring occurs at the end of the Third Age, and we are living in the Seventh Age. (hence Child's name). And we can construct how many thousands of years belong to the first ages.